Thread: The Truth about the "greatest" Muhammad Ali..

We live in an age where political correctness has taken on bile inducing levels. History is often rewritten to change facts from different eras to make them more palatable to modern day sensabilities.
Seeing a shaking and drooling Ali, a once champion boxer and well known personality,reduced to the mental ability of a cooked turnip certainly invokes feelings of sadness and even pity.
BUT, those feelings should not be allowed to blur the facts about Ali.
In an attempt to provide some balance to the often sugarcoated fawnings that so often accompany the name Ali among boxing circles I am re-presenting a bit I shared about Ali. These are not my personal opinions about the man, just simple historic facts. As much loved as he is today,at one time he was the most disliked and even hated sports figure in the world.


If I may be allowed to offer a few minor corrections,regarding what are normally presented and accepted as have presented as "FACTS."

1) " Ali was stripped of from his title due to racism"

actual fact.

April 29, 1967
New York Lifts Crown in Swift Move
By THOMAS ROGERS
Only a few hours after he had refused to be inducted yesterday into the armed forces of the United States, Cassius Clay was stripped of his world heavyweight boxing championship by the major governing authorities of the sport in this country and Europe.

The New York State Athletic Commission, in a statement issued by Edwin B. Dooley, the chairman, announced it had "unanimously decided to suspend his [Clay's] boxing license indefinitely and to withdraw recognition of him as world heavyweight champion."

Mr. Dooley said, "His refusal to enter the service is regarded by the commission to be detrimental to the best interests of boxing."

Please note that regardless of an individuals opinion this action at the time was a crime. furthermore.

He was also convicted for refusing induction into the army and sentenced to five years in prison.

Ali said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

Based on this it might be assumed that Ali would fight in a JIhad or "holy war" against the American "unbelievers" such as Is the inspiration and justification for the 9-11 attacks

2) Ali is a very intelligent and intellectual person

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar.

His poems and rhymes were considered juvenile and simple minded.


3) He is often presented as being one of the kindest,nicest people ever,even taking on "Gandhi" like attributes
On February 6, 1967, Ali returned to a Houston boxing ring to fight Terrell in what became one of the uglier fights in boxing. Terrell had angered Ali by calling him Clay, and the champion vowed to punish him for this insult. During the fight, Ali kept shouting at his opponent, "What's my name, Uncle Tom ... What's my name." Terrell suffered 15 rounds of brutal punishment, losing 13 of 15 rounds on two judges' scorecards, but Ali did not knock him out. Analysts, including several who spoke to ESPN on the sports channel's "Ali Rap" special, speculated that the fight only continued because Ali chose not to end it, choosing instead to further punish Terrell. After the fight, Tex Maule wrote, "It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty."

Prior his fight against George Foreman Ali coached and lead the locals to chant against his fellow African American "Ali boombyay"
which is literally translated Ali...kill him


4) Ali was political leader along side Malcolm X ,and was a black rights leader not unlike Martin Luther King

fact:

Malcolm X instructed his peopleto distance themselves from the brash, Ali until after the Liston fight, just in case he lost
Ali was a simple minded person who was manipulated by Malcom X and used as a publicity pawn for the Anti-American Black Muslim movement. (This is my opinion.)

Here's my reasoning.

Ali was named after his father Cassius Clay Sr. who was named after a famous Anti-Slavery hero. This man was and is Respected and Honoured by Black Activists both then and Now. heres a bit about him.

He opposed the annexation of Texas, supported Henry Clay, and served in the Mexican-American War. He was an opponent of slavery and supported Abraham Lincoln for the presidency. In 1861, after the outbreak of the Civil War, President Lincoln nominated Clay for the post of ambassador to Spain, but Clay declined the appointment.[3] From 1861 to 1862, and from 1863 to 1869, he was Minister to Russia, where he was influential in the negotiations to purchase Alaska. In 1886 he published his speeches, edited by Horace Greeley. In 1896 he was prominent as a "gold" Democrat.

His colorful and violent career as an outspoken emancipation's (wanting to end slavery) in a slave-holding region included owning and publishing the True American, an antislavery newspaper in Lexington, Kentucky (moved to Cincinnati, Ohio), and has been chronicled in both his autobiography and in a much later biography. During the Wickliffe–Garret Davis debate at Russell's Cave Spring in 1843, Clay was attacked by a hired assassin named Samuel Brown. Brown shot Clay in the chest, but Clay defended himself vigorously, cutting his attacker's nose off and cutting out an eye with a Bowie knife. Clay sponsored his friend Rev. John G. Fee's abolitionist ministry in Madison County, Kentucky, and indirectly contributed to Fee's founding of the town of Berea and of Berea College.

Clay died July 22, 1903. Survivors included his daughter, the women's rights activist Laura Clay. His family home, White Hall, is now maintained by the Commonwealth of Kentucky as White Hall State Historic Shrine.

The world-famous professional boxer Muhammad Ali was originally named Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the emancipation's.

The name of Ali's father and Ali Jr were taken as a sign of respect and affirmation of one heroic man's fight against slavery...however..

Malcolm X provided Clay with the name Cassius X, discarding his surname as a "symbol of his ancestors' enslavement."

When In fact it was just the opposite.

On Friday, March 6, 1964 Malcolm X announced that Clay would be granted his "X." That same night, Elijah Muhammad recorded a statement over the phone to be played over the radio that Clay would be renamed Muhammad (the prophet of Islam) Ali.

No instruction is given in any form in the Qur'an (the Muslim bible) for the "granting" or changing of names by any religious instructor over any other believer.


In Conclusion.. this discussion may be a bit "deep" for some of you younger members here. BUT always look at the facts and make your own informed determinations about things.


Statements about Ali being the greatest boxer, sports personality and even greatest person to ever live.....are simply ridiculous,stupid,moronic and totally foolish......everyone should know by now that that kind of a title for a boxer could only be applied to..... NICOLAI VALUEV!



(just kidding on the last part for those of you I lost there!)

Originally Posted by landmine950

1) " Ali was stripped of from his title due to racism"
Ali said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

Based on this it might be assumed that Ali would fight in a JIhad or "holy war" against the American "unbelievers" such as Is the inspiration and justification for the 9-11 attacks

You feel racism wasn't the reason. In 1967, if a white Christian champion had resisted induction and done so because he thought the teachings of Jesus were against war, would he have received the same criticisms/punishments that Ali got?

Originally Posted by landmine950

2) Ali is a very intelligent and intellectual person

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar.

His poems and rhymes were considered juvenile and simple minded.

It is widely believed that Ali suffers from dyslexia. A few of his children suffer from this learning disability and it tends to run in families. Back in the 50s and 60s when Ali was growing up, learning disabilites were not diagnosed like they are today.
Someone with dyslexia can have tremendous difficulties reading and writing (like on a military test) yet they can still be of well-above average intelligence in terms of non-reading and non-writing brain functions.

Originally Posted by landmine950

fact:

Malcolm X instructed his peopleto distance themselves from the brash, Ali until after the Liston fight, just in case he lost

Source?

i don't think we should dig too deep in to all the crap that is written about the great muhammed ali. a lot is written about him. an awesome man.

I'm sure that Ali has clay feet just like everybody else but the arguments you gave about his refusing to go to war somehow making him morally dubious are weak.

There are countless great people in history who go against their governments but who are morally right.

Ever heard of Jesus? Or Ghandi?

Ali didn't want to go to war because he thought it was morally wrong. To disobey your government in order to obey your God in such circumstances in my mind is a brave and noble act.

However I am sure you will find a friend in Lyle, he's hates Ali too

should i or

1) " Ali was stripped of from his title due to racism"

News to me and anyone else who followed his career

Originally Posted by landmine950

fact:

Malcolm X instructed his peopleto distance themselves from the brash, Ali until after the Liston fight, just in case he lost

WRONG.. eliga muhammed (spelling) was the guy who told everyone to stay away from the liston fight he even told X to stay away for the reasons you have stated but Malcolm was ringside and the only one there to support the 1/10 underdog.

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar.

seems kinda the smart thing to do if you dont want to get inducted

His poems and rhymes were considered juvenile and simple minded.

WRONG his work today is held in high regards i think he is also responsible for writing the shorted poem ever

3) He is often presented as being one of the kindest,nicest people ever,even taking on "Gandhi" like attributes

as a boxer you kidding me KIND but he was later on in life don all sorts of stuf including flying over to to get the USA soldier being held captive by Sadam

Seeing a shaking and drooling Ali, a once champion boxer and well known personality,reduced to the mental ability of a cooked turnip certainly invokes feelings of sadness and even pity.

i take it this is for effect


to sum up most people who followed Ali know what he was about

right on! ali had the biggest balls i had ever seen. most of the public and the whole US government held it against him for refusing to go to a war that he had no part in, but he still stood by his beliefs and morals, that is a geezer in my book. respect.

Originally Posted by landmine950

Only a few hours after he had refused to be inducted yesterday into the armed forces of the United States, Cassius Clay was stripped of his world heavyweight boxing championship by the major governing authorities of the sport in this country and Europe.

I always thought it was funny that Ali was stripped of the WORLD title because he would not joine the AMERICAN army. What if Ali was from North Vietnam, and refused to joine the North Vietnamese army, you think they would have stripped the WORLD title from him in that case too.

Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

Originally Posted by landmine950

Only a few hours after he had refused to be inducted yesterday into the armed forces of the United States, Cassius Clay was stripped of his world heavyweight boxing championship by the major governing authorities of the sport in this country and Europe.

I always thought it was funny that Ali was stripped of the WORLD title because he would not joine the AMERICAN army. What if Ali was from North Vietnam, and refused to joine the North Vietnamese army, you think they would have stripped the WORLD title from him in that case too.

No they would have imprisoned him or executed him for treason. And for the record, Ali is physically messed up, but his mind is still fairly sharp. He is far from a vegetable Landmine.

Originally Posted by landmine950

We live in an age where political correctness has taken on bile inducing levels. History is often rewritten to change facts from different eras to make them more palatable to modern day sensabilities.
Seeing a shaking and drooling Ali, a once champion boxer and well known personality,reduced to the mental ability of a cooked turnip certainly invokes feelings of sadness and even pity.
BUT, those feelings should not be allowed to blur the facts about Ali.
In an attempt to provide some balance to the often sugarcoated fawnings that so often accompany the name Ali among boxing circles I am re-presenting a bit I shared about Ali. These are not my personal opinions about the man, just simple historic facts. As much loved as he is today,at one time he was the most disliked and even hated sports figure in the world.


If I may be allowed to offer a few minor corrections,regarding what are normally presented and accepted as have presented as "FACTS."

1) " Ali was stripped of from his title due to racism"

actual fact.

April 29, 1967
New York Lifts Crown in Swift Move
By THOMAS ROGERS
Only a few hours after he had refused to be inducted yesterday into the armed forces of the United States, Cassius Clay was stripped of his world heavyweight boxing championship by the major governing authorities of the sport in this country and Europe.

The New York State Athletic Commission, in a statement issued by Edwin B. Dooley, the chairman, announced it had "unanimously decided to suspend his [Clay's] boxing license indefinitely and to withdraw recognition of him as world heavyweight champion."

Mr. Dooley said, "His refusal to enter the service is regarded by the commission to be detrimental to the best interests of boxing."

Please note that regardless of an individuals opinion this action at the time was a crime. furthermore.

He was also convicted for refusing induction into the army and sentenced to five years in prison.

Ali said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

Based on this it might be assumed that Ali would fight in a JIhad or "holy war" against the American "unbelievers" such as Is the inspiration and justification for the 9-11 attacks

2) Ali is a very intelligent and intellectual person

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar.

His poems and rhymes were considered juvenile and simple minded.


3) He is often presented as being one of the kindest,nicest people ever,even taking on "Gandhi" like attributes
On February 6, 1967, Ali returned to a Houston boxing ring to fight Terrell in what became one of the uglier fights in boxing. Terrell had angered Ali by calling him Clay, and the champion vowed to punish him for this insult. During the fight, Ali kept shouting at his opponent, "What's my name, Uncle Tom ... What's my name." Terrell suffered 15 rounds of brutal punishment, losing 13 of 15 rounds on two judges' scorecards, but Ali did not knock him out. Analysts, including several who spoke to ESPN on the sports channel's "Ali Rap" special, speculated that the fight only continued because Ali chose not to end it, choosing instead to further punish Terrell. After the fight, Tex Maule wrote, "It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty."

Prior his fight against George Foreman Ali coached and lead the locals to chant against his fellow African American "Ali boombyay"
which is literally translated Ali...kill him


4) Ali was political leader along side Malcolm X ,and was a black rights leader not unlike Martin Luther King

fact:

Malcolm X instructed his peopleto distance themselves from the brash, Ali until after the Liston fight, just in case he lost
Ali was a simple minded person who was manipulated by Malcom X and used as a publicity pawn for the Anti-American Black Muslim movement. (This is my opinion.)

Here's my reasoning.

Ali was named after his father Cassius Clay Sr. who was named after a famous Anti-Slavery hero. This man was and is Respected and Honoured by Black Activists both then and Now. heres a bit about him.

He opposed the annexation of Texas, supported Henry Clay, and served in the Mexican-American War. He was an opponent of slavery and supported Abraham Lincoln for the presidency. In 1861, after the outbreak of the Civil War, President Lincoln nominated Clay for the post of ambassador to Spain, but Clay declined the appointment.[3] From 1861 to 1862, and from 1863 to 1869, he was Minister to Russia, where he was influential in the negotiations to purchase Alaska. In 1886 he published his speeches, edited by Horace Greeley. In 1896 he was prominent as a "gold" Democrat.

His colorful and violent career as an outspoken emancipation's (wanting to end slavery) in a slave-holding region included owning and publishing the True American, an antislavery newspaper in Lexington, Kentucky (moved to Cincinnati, Ohio), and has been chronicled in both his autobiography and in a much later biography. During the Wickliffe–Garret Davis debate at Russell's Cave Spring in 1843, Clay was attacked by a hired assassin named Samuel Brown. Brown shot Clay in the chest, but Clay defended himself vigorously, cutting his attacker's nose off and cutting out an eye with a Bowie knife. Clay sponsored his friend Rev. John G. Fee's abolitionist ministry in Madison County, Kentucky, and indirectly contributed to Fee's founding of the town of Berea and of Berea College.

Clay died July 22, 1903. Survivors included his daughter, the women's rights activist Laura Clay. His family home, White Hall, is now maintained by the Commonwealth of Kentucky as White Hall State Historic Shrine.

The world-famous professional boxer Muhammad Ali was originally named Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the emancipation's.

The name of Ali's father and Ali Jr were taken as a sign of respect and affirmation of one heroic man's fight against slavery...however..

Malcolm X provided Clay with the name Cassius X, discarding his surname as a "symbol of his ancestors' enslavement."

When In fact it was just the opposite.

On Friday, March 6, 1964 Malcolm X announced that Clay would be granted his "X." That same night, Elijah Muhammad recorded a statement over the phone to be played over the radio that Clay would be renamed Muhammad (the prophet of Islam) Ali.

No instruction is given in any form in the Qur'an (the Muslim bible) for the "granting" or changing of names by any religious instructor over any other believer.


In Conclusion.. this discussion may be a bit "deep" for some of you younger members here. BUT always look at the facts and make your own informed determinations about things.


Statements about Ali being the greatest boxer, sports personality and even greatest person to ever live.....are simply ridiculous,stupid,moronic and totally foolish......everyone should know by now that that kind of a title for a boxer could only be applied to..... NICOLAI VALUEV!



(just kidding on the last part for those of you I lost there!)

You've got A WHOLE SHIT LOAD of time on your hands....
You a writer?
I take it you write fictional stories....

I agree with politically what you are saying, but to say Ali wasn't the greatest in terms of boxing and what he did for it is crap... No boxer is more recognized than him today, and this is 26 years after he retired. He outshone everybody that comes to mind except maybe Mike Tyson, and though Ali IMO wasn't the best person of character he had a some virtuous qualities that we almost never see in boxers. He was manipulated, and he did have a hard life so alot of his personality is understandable for me at least.

Ali's mind is mush the same as his body.
I watched a fight card YEARS ago where he made a guest appearance in the ring. 4 separate times with in one minute he turned to the guy standing next to him and nodded and then stuck his hand out to shake his hand.
Each time it was as if he had forgotten that he had just done it.. it was really sad. Just like altzimers.
The 5th time the guy put his arm around Ali's shoulder and hugged him to keep him from further embarrassment.

All in All here. some good replies...and maybe made the younger guys think.....a bit..

I feel that before anyone can make a fair assessment of Ali's accomplishments inside the ring, and his standing as a boxer compared to others, you must remove the "myth" of the man from the boxer himself.


A P.S. to Saddo Ali did not write the shortest poem ever...I did..
here it is..









want to hear it again?




P.P.S.
nearest as I can figure this post earned me about 15 sad clicks....so far

maybe I should change it to....."Ali's drool heals the sick!"

Damn the ignorance here is amazing!
When you think about the way America was when Ali was Champ, so bigoted that Malcolm X and Martin Luther King were assassinated don't you think it's ironic that they call ALI a racist for stating his opinion?

It's not racism to hate your oppressor it's common sense!

Originally Posted by landmine950

We live in an age where political correctness has taken on bile inducing levels. History is often rewritten to change facts from different eras to make them more palatable to modern day sensabilities.
Seeing a shaking and drooling Ali, a once champion boxer and well known personality,reduced to the mental ability of a cooked turnip certainly invokes feelings of sadness and even pity.
BUT, those feelings should not be allowed to blur the facts about Ali.
In an attempt to provide some balance to the often sugarcoated fawnings that so often accompany the name Ali among boxing circles I am re-presenting a bit I shared about Ali. These are not my personal opinions about the man, just simple historic facts. As much loved as he is today,at one time he was the most disliked and even hated sports figure in the world.


If I may be allowed to offer a few minor corrections,regarding what are normally presented and accepted as have presented as "FACTS."

1) " Ali was stripped of from his title due to racism"

actual fact.

April 29, 1967
New York Lifts Crown in Swift Move
By THOMAS ROGERS
Only a few hours after he had refused to be inducted yesterday into the armed forces of the United States, Cassius Clay was stripped of his world heavyweight boxing championship by the major governing authorities of the sport in this country and Europe.

The New York State Athletic Commission, in a statement issued by Edwin B. Dooley, the chairman, announced it had "unanimously decided to suspend his [Clay's] boxing license indefinitely and to withdraw recognition of him as world heavyweight champion."

Mr. Dooley said, "His refusal to enter the service is regarded by the commission to be detrimental to the best interests of boxing."

Please note that regardless of an individuals opinion this action at the time was a crime. furthermore.

He was also convicted for refusing induction into the army and sentenced to five years in prison.

Ali said "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

Based on this it might be assumed that Ali would fight in a JIhad or "holy war" against the American "unbelievers" such as Is the inspiration and justification for the 9-11 attacks

2) Ali is a very intelligent and intellectual person

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar.

His poems and rhymes were considered juvenile and simple minded.


3) He is often presented as being one of the kindest,nicest people ever,even taking on "Gandhi" like attributes
On February 6, 1967, Ali returned to a Houston boxing ring to fight Terrell in what became one of the uglier fights in boxing. Terrell had angered Ali by calling him Clay, and the champion vowed to punish him for this insult. During the fight, Ali kept shouting at his opponent, "What's my name, Uncle Tom ... What's my name." Terrell suffered 15 rounds of brutal punishment, losing 13 of 15 rounds on two judges' scorecards, but Ali did not knock him out. Analysts, including several who spoke to ESPN on the sports channel's "Ali Rap" special, speculated that the fight only continued because Ali chose not to end it, choosing instead to further punish Terrell. After the fight, Tex Maule wrote, "It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty."

Prior his fight against George Foreman Ali coached and lead the locals to chant against his fellow African American "Ali boombyay"
which is literally translated Ali...kill him


4) Ali was political leader along side Malcolm X ,and was a black rights leader not unlike Martin Luther King

fact:

Malcolm X instructed his peopleto distance themselves from the brash, Ali until after the Liston fight, just in case he lost
Ali was a simple minded person who was manipulated by Malcom X and used as a publicity pawn for the Anti-American Black Muslim movement. (This is my opinion.)

Here's my reasoning.

Ali was named after his father Cassius Clay Sr. who was named after a famous Anti-Slavery hero. This man was and is Respected and Honoured by Black Activists both then and Now. heres a bit about him.

He opposed the annexation of Texas, supported Henry Clay, and served in the Mexican-American War. He was an opponent of slavery and supported Abraham Lincoln for the presidency. In 1861, after the outbreak of the Civil War, President Lincoln nominated Clay for the post of ambassador to Spain, but Clay declined the appointment.[3] From 1861 to 1862, and from 1863 to 1869, he was Minister to Russia, where he was influential in the negotiations to purchase Alaska. In 1886 he published his speeches, edited by Horace Greeley. In 1896 he was prominent as a "gold" Democrat.

His colorful and violent career as an outspoken emancipation's (wanting to end slavery) in a slave-holding region included owning and publishing the True American, an antislavery newspaper in Lexington, Kentucky (moved to Cincinnati, Ohio), and has been chronicled in both his autobiography and in a much later biography. During the Wickliffe–Garret Davis debate at Russell's Cave Spring in 1843, Clay was attacked by a hired assassin named Samuel Brown. Brown shot Clay in the chest, but Clay defended himself vigorously, cutting his attacker's nose off and cutting out an eye with a Bowie knife. Clay sponsored his friend Rev. John G. Fee's abolitionist ministry in Madison County, Kentucky, and indirectly contributed to Fee's founding of the town of Berea and of Berea College.

Clay died July 22, 1903. Survivors included his daughter, the women's rights activist Laura Clay. His family home, White Hall, is now maintained by the Commonwealth of Kentucky as White Hall State Historic Shrine.

The world-famous professional boxer Muhammad Ali was originally named Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the emancipation's.

The name of Ali's father and Ali Jr were taken as a sign of respect and affirmation of one heroic man's fight against slavery...however..

Malcolm X provided Clay with the name Cassius X, discarding his surname as a "symbol of his ancestors' enslavement."

When In fact it was just the opposite.

On Friday, March 6, 1964 Malcolm X announced that Clay would be granted his "X." That same night, Elijah Muhammad recorded a statement over the phone to be played over the radio that Clay would be renamed Muhammad (the prophet of Islam) Ali.

No instruction is given in any form in the Qur'an (the Muslim bible) for the "granting" or changing of names by any religious instructor over any other believer.


In Conclusion.. this discussion may be a bit "deep" for some of you younger members here. BUT always look at the facts and make your own informed determinations about things.


Statements about Ali being the greatest boxer, sports personality and even greatest person to ever live.....are simply ridiculous,stupid,moronic and totally foolish......everyone should know by now that that kind of a title for a boxer could only be applied to..... NICOLAI VALUEV!



(just kidding on the last part for those of you I lost there!)

So youre not a fan then?

NOBODY ever thought Ali was stripped of his title because of racism...

I think the reason people idiolize ali is that he stood firm in his believes, and also cause he was awesome in the ring. I don't think there are to many people that equate him to ghandi or anything, but ali was a great man in his own right, for standing up to what he saw as injustice!