Yeah, Roach pisses me off with his Mercinary ways of late. I give Roach credit for polishing Pac but he was already such a tremendous athlete before he ended up at the Wildcard, I don't give him all of it.

I think Roach is a good trainer but not as good as people give him credit for.

He, for some reason thinks he can jump in with a fighter 6 weeks before a fight and turn mold him into what he wants.

He's not Jesus Christ. It takes top level trainers years to get to know a fighter and it irks me that he takes exhorbidant amounts of money to take a fighter on short notice and leaves his stable waiting in the wings...

This is not the type of person I would want training me... a friggin mercenary...

He says him and Pac are like best friends and Roach is even a father figure... It's cuz it's his meal ticket. He has very little loyalty to fighters...

You don't have the guys like Cus and Dundee anymore that will BE THERE nomatter what kind of shit goes down.

Roach gets a phonecall from Delahoya and (not that I blame him a whole lot but he screwed Manfredo) next thing you know Peter is fighting in a world title fight in front of 45000 hostile fans across an ocean from home.... Without his security blanket. He lost alot of my respect April 7th 2007.

That's just me though

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

VIP seating available upon request...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well my belief was primarily founded after the Ashira bout.
Calzaghe started very strong and the commentators speculated that he wanted an early night. He punched very conventionally and looked like he was going to finish early until the break in the hand. After that he trew only the right hand.

After that fight there was an interview with Enzo, who said usually they punched differently so as to avoid hand damage.

Actually now that I think of it, Enzo spends so long teaching his boxers proper punching technique (with the shoulder) he would be rather annoyed at his star pupil for arm punching if they hadn't planned it wouldn't he?

And you may well be right about Calzaghe passing PAC INTO NUMBER 2. iT'S A CLOSE RACE.

__________________
"Pain is Just the feeling of Weakness leaving the body."

Gernaro Hernandez had never been beaten at Super Featherweight and had a win over the great Azumah Nelson, Corrales was also a P4P fighter. Im not really going to break down Mayweather's opposition because i have had this discussion to many times. But IMO Mayweather's opposition is much better than Calzaghe's no question. Fighters like Woodhall, Brewer, Eubank, are decent wins but all 3 of those fighters were shot and Woodhall, Brewer were coming off bad losses, and Eubank was a late replacement. No doubt Calzaghe has beat the best in the division but that doesn't mean its been good opposition though. And sorry bro but i couldn't disagree with you more with your last statement i'll copy and paste it.

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn't achieved and that's a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class.

Totally disagree Corrales was young and an unbeaten champion. Plus he was in the top 10 P4P rankings i believe he was ranked 7th or something like that. Most experts had that 50-50 match up and Mayweather just destroyed Corrales flooring him x5 times.

__________________
Favorite Fighters Of All Time.

Wilfredo Gomez, Ricardo Lopez, Larry Holmes, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Salvador Sanchez, Shane Mosley, Aaron Pryor, Thomas Hearns, Terry Norris, Julian Jackson, Kelly Pavlik, M.Cotto

YES ICE I DONT THINK IN THE FUTURE PEOPLE WILL REGARD KESSLER AS THE SAME CLASS AS CORRALES . CALZAGHE IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME BREATH AS MAYWEATHER.
HES FOUGHT IN A WEAK DIVISION FOR 10 YEARS.

__________________
6'4 of perpetual Darkness.<br />Here is the Dark Truth .

good post, I totally agree.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Corrales was a very good fighter he had one respected title going into the mayweather fight and lost several times post mayweather including one at the same division that mayweather beat him in, superfeatherweight against casamayor. Kessler on the other hand is very underated and had WBA and WBC belts as well as a fantastic unbeaten pro and brilliant amateur record. Its very tough for non american fighters to gain the respect they deserve, if kessler was american, imagine the hype, rememeber the hype over lacy....kessler would be the new saviour of american boxing.

However until kessler proves himself over the next few years we cant really judge him. Time will tell, I think kessler is better than taylor, pavlik etc and he will prove that in the future. Taylor was ranked very high p4p until pavlik came along and so when kessler beats those guys he will certainly be regarded better than corrales.

Supermiddleweight is now arguable the most competitive in boxing and if kessler emerges top of the pile which i think he will, calzaghe will get his due respect from those in the know but probably not from the very many haters.

As i have said i dont believe calzaghe is better than mayweather p4p yet and he probably wont be able to, mayweather is proving to be one of the best fighters of all time p4p so theres no shame in that BUT that doesnt mean he cant rank alongside the likes of jones jr etc amongst the very best middleweights

All i can say is bring on bhop vs calzaghe and bring on kessler vs miranda etc

I actually agree that Kessler probably will come out on top of the Super Middleweights if he hasn't lost that confidence. I think he takes both Pavlik and Taylor.

Pavlik's gonna put an expiration date on that chin as it hasn't been truly tested yet and Taylor is the same size as Kessler and is as skilled a boxer as Kess is IMO.

Pavlik beats Kessler and The Taylor fight would be a toss up for me.

And this is where we totally disagree.

You say that calzaghe is not close to mayweather...yet i specifically wrote IF HE BEATS HOPKINS, PAVLIK AND THE WINNER OF THE CURRENT 4 OTHER LIGHT HEAVIES HAVING THEIR LIL ELIMINATOR RIGHT NOW.

That means he goes over to usa and fights their 3 best champs at light heavy and pavlik presumabely at super middle and beats them all (if he does).

So you are saying that someone who retires UNBEATEN, UNDISPUTED CHAMP WITH ALL BELTS AT SUPER MIDDLE AND LIGHT HEAVY FOR 12 YEARS, who has beaten the likes of eubank, lacy, kessler, hopkins, tarver and pavlik (because i think he will come to the usa and beat all of the american champs, although of course i might be wrong, we will have to wait and see though).

Your saying that this person does not rank up there with mayweather?

Sorry guys, personally i feel kessler will dominate over miranda, taylor, wright and dominate any other fighter he faces, i think kessler will easily become undisputed super middle champ when joe has retired and move upto light heavy to be a champ at light heavy also.

One thing i cant understand is the fuss people make over roy jones. WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE SLAMMING HIM for another 'tune up fight' against 'bayer'? Kessler knocked the crap out of bayer.

Why the hell is jones wanting to fight bayer, that to me is pathetic.

Roy jones was allegedly at his peak when he beat ruiz and beat tarver hte first time...yet his rematch with tarver (where he gets clear cut ko'd) was only 6 months later What the hell? How can someone suddenly be 'past it' after 6 months?

So when hopkins loses, the excuses will be 'Calzaghe is not a great fighter, he just fought a 'past it' hopkins'.

When pavlik is ko'd or battered (his style is perfect for joe to use his speed and combo's against) the excuse will be 'pavlik is moving up and is too inexperienced'.

When calzaghe beats dawson the excuses will be 'hes been overhyped aka jeff lacy was, we (the american media) have overhyped him too much, calzaghe isnt that good, its just dawson was actually a bum that we overhyped'.

If calzaghe beats tarver 'tarver is past it now'.

If woods beats tarver in the eliminator fight then faces calzaghe and calzaghe beats woods then the excuse is 'woods is a crap fighter anyway' (yet woods was probably the best fighter at light heavy that jones ever beat).

If calzaghe beats johnson 'oh hes past it'.

Basically anything he does, even if he beats the whole lot will be met with excuses...and im sorry guys but if calzaghe were to face AND BEAT...

Tarver, johnson, pavlik, hopkins, dawson and woods...then hes easily best p4p out there.

The whole fact (and this is what i believe), ive been watching joe box now for about 6 years! JOE ISNT AT HIS PEAK ANYMORE EITHER! People say his next bout is a 'prime calzaghe vs a past it hopkins', well hopkins doesnt look past it to me, a win against tarver and winky both at light heavy? Hopkins doesnt say hes past it either, he says hes game!

I think that a lot of people dont realise just how special calzaghe is and love to make excuses like 'he doesnt punch straight' HAHAHHAA, HAHAHA, to me that is so stupid, 'he doesnt punch straight' lol...have you been watching calzaghe for years? Calzaghe punches EVERYWHERE! He has in fighting, out fighting, scrapping, bossing and counter fighting, exceptional stamina and no matter what people say he has good power (although not the best)...how can anyone say this guy doesnt have good physical ability? His physical ability is fantastic.

The arguments about his hands are very weak arguments indeed. A great boxer is one who can ADAPT, one who has ring craft and can adapt his game, the fact that calzaghe has adapted his game just shows how clever a boxer he is.

As for p4p...all i know is this. IF calzaghe comes to america and BEATS every us champ that stands in his path, tarver, jones, hopkins, dawson, pavlik etc as far as im concerned there are NO excuses, he is the best...he proves he is the best by BEATING EVERYONE FOR 12 WHOLE YEARS!

Will he do it though? Who knows...we will have to wait and see.

To say that he can never be p4p the best is silly though...lets suppose he challenges samuel peter to a fight? (just theoretically) AND HE BEATS PETER Peter is a far superior heavyweight to ruiz (who jones beat)...so your saying that even if he beats peter (im not saying he would, this is hypothetical) then you still wont give him the p4p number 1?

So imagine this, calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson, peter and pavlik all in usa...and people still dont give him the number 1 p4p spot? That would be ridiculous...truly the sign of a hater.

I agree that as things stand at the moment mayweather is p4p number 1. I dont particularly care for p4p as i dont think it means much anyway because someone gave the example of 'scaling fighters to the same weight and size then seeing their skill and fight'...that is totally impossible, you cant do that because scaled upwards fighters would lose speed and stamina (its simple physiology, as the limbs get longer the fulcrum is further from the lever meaning more energy required to throw punches/move) to say that they would be exactly the same fighter but just bigger and at a bigger weight is nonsense...ie imagine a 20 stone 6ft 10 paquiao moving at the same speed he does but with double the power of tyson...is that possible? NO!

If you have been following calzaghe fight for years now like i have then youve seen he is the COMPLETE fighter...he has not fought in the states yet.

I believe that IF he comes to the states and dominates over EVERY american champ he faces, then sorry guys, there are no EXCUSES! He is the best fighter in the world (and joint with mayweather if mayweather beats cotto).

Of course though...should calzaghe beat hopkins, dawson and pavlik...BUT floyd loses to de la hoya or cotto, OOOOOHHHH!!! That would technically make calzaghe p4p number 1 which i know would anger many people and of course they will still refuse to accept this.

Anyway, forgetting p4p as its all hypothetical, i believe calzaghe will come to the states and show the world that he can beat everyone in the whole world.

It will then raise massive doubts of why roy jones did not fight calzaghe? I mean its pointless jones and calzaghe fighting now because joe would most likely ko roy, but roy is way past it now (we all know this) so theres no point them fighting.

Will calzaghe come to america and beat all the usa champs? I believe he will...maybe he will, maybe he wont, we'll have to see.

But what i do know is that the excuse makers and the haters will be there regardless of his performances.

Thanks everyone for participating in the thread, THIS IS A GREAT FORUM WITH GREAT DISCUSSION.