Thread: Koko the Gorilla, especially of interest to Sharla and Pacfan

Originally Posted by Sharla

Well I think the way animals are often territorial is a sign of having a concept of the you and I thing surely?

Also pets that get jealous of other pets and new family members. Bring a new dog or a baby into a house which already has a dog or cat and see how much they HATE their owners apying attention to the new party. Parrots have been known to get so stressed out about it they start pulling their own feathers out!

I don't understand why people think animals are so limited mentally and emotionally. Where's the evidence that they're NOT emotional creatures?

Having emotions or engaging in instinctive territorial behaviour isn't what anybody finds hard to accept. All of these things can be explained at a biological level, i.e release of chemicals, hormones etc.

But showing evidence of conceptualised thought processes is something that only humans are supposed to do.

For example pat a dog and tell him he's good, he will wag his tail and feel happy. His emotional circuitry is wired to associate your friendly tonality and positive kino (touch) as meaning you are pleased and receptive towards him and his brain releases chemicals which make him feel happiness. There is nothing that hints at conceptual thought and it can all be explained using a simple biochemical model.

Demonstrating an ability to understand and manipulate language however, especially in being able to invent new words and link words together is remarkable, as this is something that a simple biochemical model cannot explain.

It's a bridge over which only humans are supposed to have crossed. I'm incredibly interested to find out more about this.

I don't think territorial behaviour is evidence of a you and I understanding as even bees and ants are incredibly territorial and clearly have no understanding whatsoever, it's just simple chemical circuits, totall mechanical.

But a gorilla able to look at a ring on a persons finger and without ever having been shown one before be able to combine from her own knowledge base two words that when combined could explain the object is just completely incredible.

I'm still a little skeptical of it to be honest, wondering if her handlers are unitentionally exaggerating or distorting the true facts. Maybe someone taught her it was a 'finger bracelet' or at least aided her 'understanding' in some way or maybe it was fortuitious combination of words that Koko arrived at via unitential suggestion from her handlers.

Either way it is fascninating and certainly makes me wonder how unique 'human' concsiousness really is.

Oh and before you get excited and think I'm about to abandon my creation model and hop on the evolutionary bandwagon with you, I don't see as this has any impact on either theory.

It could be seen as evidence of common ancestry or it could be interpretated as evidence for a common designer.

So my own faith in intelligent design is not impacted in any way by these admittedly extraordinary claims.

I would never expect you to get on the evolutionary bandwagon Bilbo - that's why I don't bother replying to any of those threads anymore.

I think this is a completely different thing.

Monkeys in Japan knew how to steal money from tourists and use it in the vending machines. They learnt how to do this. Whether they think in words or not doesn't change the fact that they think.

I think in words more than anything else. I find it hard to visualize things sometimes. I think this is a lack of ability rather than the persence of one.

A friend of mine lives in the country and she deliberately doesn't just sit her young daughter in front of the TV. She was telling me and my flatmate about how her daughter plays and pretends to mother everything - she is demonstrating a very advanced imagination for her age.

That is based on the knowledge of my flatmate who works advising schools and child care centres on how to care for children with different needs. She comes home every night with different stories about children who are challenged by certain illnesses, disabilities or home life difficulties. I believe her when she says that my friends daughter has an unusually well developed imagination.

I think the way she's being brought up to not just sit in front of a screen is developing her mentally in a way we really all should have developed. Sure having a verbal language has given us a great many advantages but we would be much better at thinking in pictures and emotionally using imagery if we didn't have that.

Animals don't need to think in words to be thinking! That's like saying when you fantasize about something and you imagine it you're not actually thinking!

I think there's a difference between being territorial and jealous too. If the dog at my mum's house is jealous of the cat she doesn't just growl at the cat to tell her to PO - she gets up on my lap and sits on me and looks for my attention. If she was just territorial she'd be fine just with getting rid of the cat - she could be there without being affectionate and still 'win'.

Plus we've all seen the thought process when you tell a dog to come to you or sit down or something and it really doesn't want to. It looks at you all guilty and then just kinds ignores you but he/she is already cringing because he/she knows that they'll be in trouble but - no - no i just HAVE to chase those ducks!!!!!! They understand - cheeky buggers are just like disobedient children - anticipating that they'll be in trouble but weighing it up - getting too excited by their other option and just no - I HAVE to chase those ducks - but I'm hiding behind you the SECOND they turn on me!

Originally Posted by Sharla

I would never expect you to get on the evolutionary bandwagon Bilbo - that's why I don't bother replying to any of those threads anymore.

I think this is a completely different thing.

Monkeys in Japan knew how to steal money from tourists and use it in the vending machines. They learnt how to do this. Whether they think in words or not doesn't change the fact that they think.

I think in words more than anything else. I find it hard to visualize things sometimes. I think this is a lack of ability rather than the persence of one.

A friend of mine lives in the country and she deliberately doesn't just sit her young daughter in front of the TV. She was telling me and my flatmate about how her daughter plays and pretends to mother everything - she is demonstrating a very advanced imagination for her age.

That is based on the knowledge of my flatmate who works advising schools and child care centres on how to care for children with different needs. She comes home every night with different stories about children who are challenged by certain illnesses, disabilities or home life difficulties. I believe her when she says that my friends daughter has an unusually well developed imagination.

I think the way she's being brought up to not just sit in front of a screen is developing her mentally in a way we really all should have developed. Sure having a verbal language has given us a great many advantages but we would be much better at thinking in pictures and emotionally using imagery if we didn't have that.

Animals don't need to think in words to be thinking! That's like saying when you fantasize about something and you imagine it you're not actually thinking!

I think there's a difference between being territorial and jealous too. If the dog at my mum's house is jealous of the cat she doesn't just growl at the cat to tell her to PO - she gets up on my lap and sits on me and looks for my attention. If she was just territorial she'd be fine just with getting rid of the cat - she could be there without being affectionate and still 'win'.

You know I actually have just read your post at least half a dozen times and to be honest have no idea how to respond! Ordinarily I either laugh knowingly to myself at a poster's limited knowledge and then properly 'explain' things to them or more often when engaging/arguing with you try and deflect your arguments by being deliberately antagonistic and try and just provoke you into making responses instead.

But you cut me down to size with your 'That's I why don't bother to respond' sentence at the start and rather took the wind out of my sails

As for your actual arguments, I must admit I simply don't have an answer to most of it

I didn't know that monkeys had learned to steal money and operate vending machines, that frankly baffles me, I have no clue

And as to why I should elevate verbal or written language so as to make it the de facto gold standard when describing intelligence and consciousness again I can't really explain.

I think you are quite correct in stating that thinking in pictures and images is still thinking consciously. Your example of your jealous mum's dog is a 'suprisingly' good one.

I also liked what you said about visual perception and thinking. Actually Jean-Jacques Rousseau's theory of the 'noble savage' was based on much the same line of reasoning.

He advocated no books for children before the age of 12 up to which time he believed children should live lives free and unrestricted to live and learn as animals, like our tribal ancestors would have done. He felt book learning stunted a childs imagination and should be avoided in their formative years. In practice his teaching methods proved a disaster as they were far too dogmatic but I can certainly see some merit to his ideas although obviously up to the age of 12 seems to be a bit extreme.

I don't really have much else to say, I feel a little like I have been taken to school.

It's put me an unusual situation that I've never faced before. I can't just argue for the sake of arguing as then you'll just stop responding as you said at the beginning of the post, and I don't want that as I find you by far the most intellectually stimulating person on the forum.

On the other hand I just don't have any answers and until I find some will have to simply concede that you may indeed be correct

I was actually tempted to just not reply at all but I would have felt like a kop out in that case.

You darn gone and got me good there girl!

I guess without any powerful argument to the contrary I'm just going to have to agree with you.

I'm sure you'll think of something - I'm SURE it's not over just yet!

Maybe what I mean to ask is, does my dog love me as much as I love him? Say he knows the emotion of love, but is he a taker or a giver?

When I eat he assumes that he will get what I do not want. Part of him knows that there will always be a bit left for him even if it's just a taste.

Once it finds his way to his bowl I'd starve to death before he offered me a bite. So he does not understand sharing despite the fact that he may "love' me.

So what is "love" in a dogs mind? Some people show love by words, some people show love by actions... how does a dog express love? Licking your hand or face I assume his showing love although my dog has not done that since he was a puppy. These days he jumps up into my spot on the couch and looks at me through the corner of his eye to see if I am going to make him get down...

When I bathe my dog or clean his ears does he know I am doing it out of love or does he think I am tortuing him?

I know I sound like a jackass but it's just thoughts I have.

I would guess that probably - like a child not wanting a bath - having to have one wouldn't feel like love. People do not always understand that things they do for each other are out of love either.

As for whether your dog would give you any food - probably not because he knows you can always get it and he doesn't think it's his role to show you love that way. Cats will often 'give' their owners presents of food though - nor realizing that a dead rat is not exactly appetising!

I read a true story about a woman who was running in the desert and fell. It's in a running magazine I have. She broke a few things (can't remember the exact injuries) but her dog stayed by her side for 3 days until she was rescued. The dog's body heat kept her alive at night when temperatures dropped - which was amazing in itself since she had very low body fat.

When rescuers finally came to her area it was her dog which led them to her. She was so delerious she was angry at her dog for walking away when he did that thinking he'd left her but he knew what he was doing!

If your dog really sensed you were in trouble he'd do whatever he could to help you. I think he probably knows you love him!

Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Silverback,
What can you tell us about Koko from those videos?
Are you guys related?

LOL I can tell you that watching her brought tears to my eyes lol

I love gorillas.

I'm trying to think here...

I remember years ago there was a house out here around where I live in near by city that was home to a Gorilla but the city wanted the Gorilla out wonder if this is the same Gorilla. I remember driving past the home and the home had signs of sorts saying things like "Help us keep _________ " (name of animal)

I'm willing to bet it is the same gorilla.

Of course animals are intelligent, how could they not be?

Natural selection rewards survival and reproduction - animals are not brainless automata. Studies show primates with a wide ability to grasp English, parrots with thousands of words of spoken vocabulary, and octopus that react to puzzles and intelligence tests.

Now, bearing in mind that they are therefore communicating to us in OUR language better than any human has managed to communicate in theirs!

People that think anything else (animal or human) is subhuman and has no dignity, soul or rights are a great part of the reason the world is in the mess that it is !!

Originally Posted by X

Of course animals are intelligent, how could they not be?

Natural selection rewards survival and reproduction - animals are not brainless automata. Studies show primates with a wide ability to grasp English, parrots with thousands of words of spoken vocabulary, and octopus that react to puzzles and intelligence tests.

Now, bearing in mind that they are therefore communicating to us in OUR language better than any human has managed to communicate in theirs!

People that think anything else (animal or human) is subhuman and has no dignity, soul or rights are a great part of the reason the world is in the mess that it is !!

Well I certainly think all animals are subhuman and I'm guessing so does everybody else in actuality!

If you've ever eaten meat or worn leather clothing or use anything that comes from animal products then by definition you'd have to accept that animals are subhuman. I believe a human life is worth more than an animal life and so does the world at large else we wouldn't kill animals to eat them or use them whatever way we do if we truly valued their lives as much as our own.

This may sound silly but if animals were truly seen as being equal to humans we'd have dogs on hospital waiting lists and sheep ahead of us in the queue at the dentist! Sounds nuts but that IS what happens in places where animals are truly seen as equal to humans, picture those remote temples overun with rats as they are believed to be sacred or obscure tribes who share their houses with cattle as the cattle are seen as equal to them!

Now that doesn't mean we should be cruel to animals, absolutely not but I don't think an animal life equates to a human life. Human life is I believe sacred.

As to the question of animal intelligence I've been thinking of this a lot recently.

My own world view I guess is biblical and in that model man is given dominion over all the animals, which I feel is an accurate reflection of how this world works.

It is true that animals can build unique relationships with humans, but interestingly they do not build them with each other. Don't get me wrong many creatures live interdependent lives and coexist to amazing degrees but at a higher level they don't form relationships with each other like a higher level animal can form with a human.

Gorillas in the wild don't bond with zebras, your family dog will rarely bond with your family cat or even another dog. They don't crave physical touch from each other like they do with a human.

I feel that animals are kind of like AI characters in an advanced computer game generally behaving like automata until they interact with real human characters.

A parrot can learn to imitate human language for example but I've never heard of parrots in the wild copying monkeys or roaring like lions.

Gorillas can learn sign language from humans and elephants can learn to paint but I've never seen a gorilla sit down and chat to an elephant in the wild. It doesn't happen.

Why not?

I believe because man kind truly has dominion over the animals and that animals are designed to be sunserviant to humans. Again I'm absolutely against animal cruelty, but I believe that God gave man stewardship over the earth and the animal kingdom, to take care of it wisely and with respect.

Pfft! The cat and the dog at my mum's house are best mates. They play together all the time.

The same can be said for the cat and dog at my bro's place. The kitten was wild and actually adopted them because it followed the dog home from a walk in the park over a km. Not my brother but the dog.

When the dog escapes from the yard the cat and the dog go adventuring together!

In the vid you posted Koko loves her kittens!

I heard about a story just recently where a dolphin helped guide 3 whales at risk of being beached out to deeper waters!

There are many examples of animals bonding with each other you just don't hear about them if you're not enough of an animal lover to be interested!

As for humans being given stewardship over the earth I also think that's crap. Humans don't have the knowledge or ability - and in the past this knowledge was even less than it is now - to make suitable decisions for the world as a whole.

We as all animals have the instinct of self preservation on an individaul and species level.

There are hospitals for animals - they are called veterinary clinics! We're just more worried about ourselves so we are willing to pay more money to train doctors to specialize in our own treatment.

Animals are not human but you don't have to think of them as being subhuman to admit that there is a food chain.

We're not at the top - there is no top really. We have parasites. We just eat what we do as do all other animals.

If you really want to get into it there are people living in the third world who don't have any better existance than some animals.

In the wild the instict for self preservation is stronger because the race for life is a harder one. That doesn't for a second mean that they are inferior.

Originally Posted by Sharla

Pfft! The cat and the dog at my mum's house are best mates. They play together all the time.

The same can be said for the cat and dog at my bro's place. The kitten was wild and actually adopted them because it followed the dog home from a walk in the park over a km. Not my brother but the dog.

When the dog escapes from the yard the cat and the dog go adventuring together!

In the vid you posted Koko loves her kittens!

I heard about a story just recently where a dolphin helped guide 3 whales at risk of being beached out to deeper waters!

There are many examples of animals bonding with each other you just don't hear about them if you're not enough of an animal lover to be interested!

As for humans being given stewardship over the earth I also think that's crap. Humans don't have the knowledge or ability - and in the past this knowledge was even less than it is now - to make suitable decisions for the world as a whole.

We as all animals have the instinct of self preservation on an individaul and species level.

There are hospitals for animals - they are called veterinary clinics! We're just more worried about ourselves so we are willing to pay more money to train doctors to specialize in our own treatment.

Animals are not human but you don't have to think of them as being subhuman to admit that there is a food chain.

We're not at the top - there is no top really. We have parasites. We just eat what we do as do all other animals.

If you really want to get into it there are people living in the third world who don't have any better existance than some animals.

In the wild the instict for self preservation is stronger because the race for life is a harder one. That doesn't for a second mean that they are inferior.

Bilbo has left the building

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I'm with Sharla on this one ..... the idea that 'god' somehow gave humans dominance over the animals is a really stupid idea. It's quite convenient to say, but there is no evidence whatsoever.

Biblical mumbo jumbo.

Sorry about that, Bilbo. I saw the title of this thread just now while browsing through Dizaster's Zen thread; you made this thread when I was still boxing-only guy here, which simply means I never visited this hidden area before.

Ya, I know about Koko, he's a pretty famous chimp. Actually some animals are pretty intelligent. I've got 9 cats myself and me and Deanrw have been having some conversation going here for some time now about them. I think cats have esp too. I've got 9 cats home and observed that some of them can actually read our minds - at least they seem to. Once, one of my cats, a somewhat aggressive and wild type who never allows himself to be cuddled, viciously attacked one of our gentle ones, and out of anger, I blurted out I'll never speak (oops, well ya I do kinda talk to my cats, lol) to him again! And strangely, that cat later jumped on my lap for the first time and sat there for several minutes - and he usually never likes anyone cuddle or even touch him. I just couldn't believe it then, but strange things do happen sometimes.

We are the only Animal that cant comunicate with other Animals. So are we the dumb ones.

Originally Posted by Sharla

Pfft! The cat and the dog at my mum's house are best mates. They play together all the time.

The same can be said for the cat and dog at my bro's place. The kitten was wild and actually adopted them because it followed the dog home from a walk in the park over a km. Not my brother but the dog.

When the dog escapes from the yard the cat and the dog go adventuring together!

In the vid you posted Koko loves her kittens!

I heard about a story just recently where a dolphin helped guide 3 whales at risk of being beached out to deeper waters!

There are many examples of animals bonding with each other you just don't hear about them if you're not enough of an animal lover to be interested!

As for humans being given stewardship over the earth I also think that's crap. Humans don't have the knowledge or ability - and in the past this knowledge was even less than it is now - to make suitable decisions for the world as a whole.

We as all animals have the instinct of self preservation on an individaul and species level.

There are hospitals for animals - they are called veterinary clinics! We're just more worried about ourselves so we are willing to pay more money to train doctors to specialize in our own treatment.

Animals are not human but you don't have to think of them as being subhuman to admit that there is a food chain.

We're not at the top - there is no top really. We have parasites. We just eat what we do as do all other animals.

If you really want to get into it there are people living in the third world who don't have any better existance than some animals.

In the wild the instict for self preservation is stronger because the race for life is a harder one. That doesn't for a second mean that they are inferior.

There are a number of documented cases of dolphins helping humans. Which is quite something considering that there is no bonding, like that between human and dog. I read somewhere that the dolphin is one of the evolutionary stages of man, for whatever that is worth. It makes my wonder how a dolphin views man, as just another animal or as something more, which by the way man is.

Here is a case where dolphins rescued a surfer after he was attacked by a great white.

Dolphins rescue surfer from shark - People: Tales of survival - Today.msnbc.com