Thread: Who suffered worse in their defeat, Cotto or Pavlik?

I don't think Cotto's people will avoid punchers so much, it wasn't just the fact that margarito can punch, he can punch but he's not a top ten P4P power guy, its the fact that he's relentless with an alien chin who made Cotto fight at a lot faster pace than Cotto wanted too.

They might avoid that type of guy (not sure there is one at 147 besides Margo, maybe Williams but that's a stretch) but I doubt they avoid anybody because of power. I don't think Cotto's chin looked that soft against Margo, compared to Margo's it did but pretty much everybody's does against Margo.

Originally Posted by OumaFan

I don't think Cotto's people will avoid punchers so much, it wasn't just the fact that margarito can punch, he can punch but he's not a top ten P4P power guy, its the fact that he's relentless with an alien chin who made Cotto fight at a lot faster pace than Cotto wanted too.

They might avoid that type of guy (not sure there is one at 147 besides Margo, maybe Williams but that's a stretch) but I doubt they avoid anybody because of power. I don't think Cotto's chin looked that soft against Margo, compared to Margo's it did but pretty much everybody's does against Margo.

Ok. That is a fair assessment.

I think Cotto's problem has more to do with stamina. Remember his fight with Mosley, he coasted the last three-four rounds. In his fight with Tony, he fought five-six rounds and then couldn't sustain. If I were pitting my fighter against Cotto, I would advise him to throw a lot of leather and keep the pace up for 8 rounds.

Exactly. But you've got to be able to take what's coming in return from Cotto to do that. Cotto's not a huge puncher at 147 but he can obviously get your attention.

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Originally Posted by Killface

Gotta say Pavlik. He finished on his feet, yeah, but between him and Cotto Pavlik is the one people are reassessing. I think if anything people are waiting to see Cotto in his next outing to decide if he's no longer the fighter he was whereas people are already saying Pavlik isn't the fighter they thought he was.

Really? There were many, many people who always thought Pavlik was a one-two punch boxer.

Do you think you'll see Cotto in with a puncher anytime soon? Do you think his management wants to test that chin again?

I like Cotto a lot. Don't get me wrong here. But, Pavlik suffered less by far.

I think you are confusing the question. I didn't ask which fighter was more exposed. I asked who suffered worse in their defeat.

It isn't about finishing on your feet. Amir Khan got ktfo, but it was a one punch knock-out. As a fellow poster mentioned, as long as it doesn't turn the fighter punch shy, he can get over it. But, Cotto was brought to his knees. His will was broken. Pavlik, from what I can tell, still has his will intact.

There's suffering and then there's suffering. Cotto's next big fight will be a huge pay day. Pavlik has just turned into a high-risk, low-reward fighter and will have to scrape his way up to where he was before Hopkins, losing out on several decent paydays in the near future. There are things that just aren't supposed to happen to elite fighters and a lot of them were done to Pavlik by a guy old enough to be his father. Cotto got beaten up by a guy we all knew could beat him up if he got the opportunity. Cotto won a good portion of the fight against Margarito, Pavlik could have stood still and gotten the same result (not really, but you know what I mean).

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

Pavlik was embaressed and everything he tried he could not get off...something like that can destroy the mentalityt of a fighter worse then a KO loss....It can make you feel like you are not worthy being at that level....You become worried in your next fight with someone of high caliber that you may be humuliated in public again...Embaressment can do crazy things to you......

Cotto was out muscled and he found out that he can not break every fighter down....it can also be very mind damaging but it as long as the fighter does not become punch shy they are usually able to recover much easier

Ok, but to put it in perspective, Bhop is an all-time-great, who has beat many great fighters (See Tito, ODLH etc.). The level you speak of is at the very, very top. Arguably the greatest super middleweight of all time, Calzaghe, had a hard time with Bhop. If I were him I would be thinking something along these lines: Pavlik lost to a legend, to have to come to grips that maybe, at 26, you are not yet a legend, doesn't seem too much to overcome. Did Bernard at 26 fight someone of Bernard at 43's level? Did Calzaghe? Did RJJ? Nope. It tooks balls. Of course, he got in over his head. But, it wasn't against some chump, it was against a great. Moreover, it wasn't at his natural weight class. And he weathered the storm pretty well: he wasn't knocked out, he never even touched the canvas.

OK put it like this...You play B-Ball with the guys on the court every Saturday, you are usually the best guy playing and everyone picks you first for your team...One day your big brother comes to the court and play's...He shuts you down in front of everyone and bust your balls afterwards...your friends then crack on you for the trash talk that your brother gave you after the schooling...The next week you are the star of the court again...the week after your brother plays again...You don't bother going to the rim because you don't want to have the same thing happen from 2 weeks ago....

Now switch it to a boxing standpoint...

You are KOing everyone out there...You beat one of the most feared punchers in the sport then beat the champion that beat Hopkins...You figure you are among the elite..you are at the top of the sport....In your mind you have arrived...You are suddenly schooled by Hopkins...

Your mind says WTF just ahppened...the next day you read the press and they pick you apart...your mind is like the kid who was schooled by his brother on the court...you know your good but know that not that good..you don't want to be ragged on by the guys again after the beating and trash talk fom the loss (Hopkins being the big brother) (In the fighters case the friends are the press)....You mentally freeze up the next time you are on the big stage because you are afraid of the poor showing....

The beating Cotto suffered can be compared in the same way...You get into a fight with your brother you get your ass kicked but you know that your brother is older and stronger...you work out a bit you grow a bit you knw that you will be able to even up with him....as long as you are willing to chance the beating....


On the basketball court you can not score a basket on him or stop him from going to the rim....so your mind says why bother In will cover someone else after all I am second best....

When you fight at least you know you can hit him with some punches and wrestle him to the ground now and then........so at least you get yours in...

Pavlik was shut down on the basketball court and could not score a single basket...

Cotto got in a few shots and knows he could at least get in a few good ones..

long analysis I know but

Physical pain goes away and the repercussions are short...mental embaressment last longer

Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

I'd say Cotto suffered worse than Pavlik. Pavlik moved up in weight to fight a legend and Cotto lost his championship to Margarito. Right?

Yeah well Cotto will not be the first nor the last to tell you Margarito is the wrong guy to sleep on.......

Hopkins may be crafty and can avoid getting hurt often by punches but Margarito just walks through your best punches

Cotto was beaten into submission

Pavlik lost a 12 round decision.


That doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

Cotto got beat down after giving as good as he got. Pavlik lost every round and dissappointed most of his fans. Cotto gained fans because of the way he fought through adversity. Cotto gave it his all but wasn't the better man that night. Pavlik was thouroughly embarrassed. I was never really a cotto fan, until i saw the margarito fight. I was and am a fan of pavlik, but was really dissappointed in his non-showing. To lose every round to an old guy is embarrassing. The only thing worse would to beknocked out by an old guy. I still like pavlik but man was i let down.

Cotto "suffered" more I believe.Cotto put himself into the fire,fought the best he was seemingly able to,and from what I remember,seemed a huge favorite going in.He had the future all layed out with Oscar talk,p4p talk,the focus seemed to miss Tony.Also.....I really have never bought into this "Two fights in one" mantra we here after that fight.Cotto was boxing very well early but was sustaining accumulative damage as early as the first round and it was steadily increasing while at the same time landing the showier punches,with absolutely no effect.He fought his heart out.Also Cotto was exceeding in his skill set greatly,developing ring diversity in top form prior to the match muchmore so than Pavlik.Now he is about to go right back into the fray with the same man.I love Tony but he has 1 1/2 gears compared to a future 1st ballot HOF and one of the best tactical fighters in recent memory,be it 43 or 63.That being said,I see Cotto rebounding,having some big time victorys but just not against Margarito

Pavliks deficiency's were there prior to climbing through the ropes,Straight ahead offensive dynamo,never passed the 9th round but for one time.Fighting out of his weight,his title's remain intact.Hopkins refused to let him get rolling at all,never could mount a sustained attack and I believe Hopkins was content to beat him up while looking flashy.Pav. (and camp) got caught up in the newspaper clip reading,bought his own hype and forgot even 'Faded' old greats fight back when doubted.I believe he will learn quite a bit and still be a factor at middle, still add some tools.I do think that movement will always kill him though.

Back to work here but we honestly will not know until the next fight for both.I do not think they are ruined,far too early to right them off.

I think Cotto suffered more than Pavlik. Their reactions right after their respective fights showed some hints on how they felt about their embarassing defeats.

Cotto hurriedly leaving the ring and did not gave a post fight interview. Pavlik stayed in there and showed so much class in answering those humiliating questions like a real man.

This doesn't imply that Cotto is less of a warrior, it only showed that he's more embarassed of the damages he suffered...
.

Hard to say who suffered more... Cotto must have been feelin some kind of pain to take a knee like that when he didn't really look that wobbly. No point in getting your nose busted up worse than it already is I guess.

The thing that struck me about Pavlik was the expression on his face towards the end of the fight. You could see it in his eyes. Puzzlement, embarrasment, whatever. It was like he is thinking "What the fuck is going on?"

Cotto was at least competitive against Margarito and early on in the fight was embarrassing Margo, Pavlik never won a round and could find it difficult to come back from this loss.
He was not supposed to lose to Hopkins, certainly not this badly, i don't hear anyone screaming rematch!
Pavlik was found out badly by a master ring tactician.

Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

Cotto was beaten into submission

Pavlik lost a 12 round decision.


That doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

It might not seem like much of a choice but think of it this way.

There aren't many guys who can do to Cotto what Margarito did to Cotto, especially taking the shots Toni took.

There are a ton of guys especially at 168 and 175 who can do to Pavlik what Hopkins did to Pavlik. B-Hop just blue printed the way to beat Kelly Pavlik AND Kelly has been proven ineffective at weights higher than 160 by Hopkins AND Jermain Taylor who some may say won the rematch.

I think Cotto was more physically damaged but mentally and emotionally it has to be Pavlik especially since he was fighting a guy who Joe Calzaghe made look like a bum.

Originally Posted by Lyle

Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

Cotto was beaten into submission

Pavlik lost a 12 round decision.


That doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

It might not seem like much of a choice but think of it this way.

There aren't many guys who can do to Cotto what Margarito did to Cotto, especially taking the shots Toni took.

There are a ton of guys especially at 168 and 175 who can do to Pavlik what Hopkins did to Pavlik. B-Hop just blue printed the way to beat Kelly Pavlik AND Kelly has been proven ineffective at weights higher than 160 by Hopkins AND Jermain Taylor who some may say won the rematch.

I think Cotto was more physically damaged but mentally and emotionally it has to be Pavlik especially since he was fighting a guy who Joe Calzaghe made look like a bum.

are u saying joe made Bhop look like a bum

I liken these to fights as followed...

Margarito's beat down of Cotto was like a highschool bully who picked a fight with a streat thug and got slapped silly by a real man.

B-Hop's abuse of Pavlik was like a highschool bully getting arrested and picking a fight with an inmate and getting raped..