Thread: retiring undefeated

Yeh,I know its been said but it is fact....Ricardo Lopez.I think to a very large degree that the lower weights and in his case,the lowest of weight classes,is held against Lopez,No,not with malice but rather a reflection of the mass media and fans over looking "The lower weight" classes in favor of a bigger = better mind set.Lopez was a superior technician through & through who was born into a ignored division,walloed in obscurity early and was buried on some of Don Kings cards.Of course when you ride with the likes of Norris,JCC,Tyson, etc that was enevitable??

The man could flat out box his opponents ears flat the fawk off.As far as Who was a better fighter when they retired undefeated??Calzaghe,Marciano,Lopez etc?Just watch them fight,watch the execution and timing,precission punching,Ring Generalship,footwork and ever increasing tempo with combination pin point shots.Imo and with no slights on either Joe or Marciano....it is no contest at the end of the day.I mean,put biases and judgement aside and just watch a handfull of fights close.Only thing missing on Finito was a lab coat and a pointer inside of the ring.

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Fenster

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

90k was an insult offer. And didn't he make 100k for fighting Sven Ottke (not sure)?

Insult? Do you know what type of money Robin Reid was on? He was fighting in sports centres after that.

What you have there is, Reid turning down a rematch with Calzaghe. That is a fact.

If I remember correctly Reid had 3 high profile fights after the Calzaghe fight.

Simple question for you. Do you think Reid deserved a rematch? A simple yes or no is required.

I couldn't care less whether he "deserved" a rematch. He was offered it. He refused it. The proof is there for everyone to see.

What high profile fights? He was fighting in sports halls.

Originally Posted by Fenster

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Fenster

Insult? Do you know what type of money Robin Reid was on? He was fighting in sports centres after that.

What you have there is, Reid turning down a rematch with Calzaghe. That is a fact.

If I remember correctly Reid had 3 high profile fights after the Calzaghe fight.

Simple question for you. Do you think Reid deserved a rematch? A simple yes or no is required.

I couldn't care less whether he "deserved" a rematch. He was offered it. He refused it. The proof is there for everyone to see.

What high profile fights? He was fighting in sports halls.

If you ever been to the Times Forum in Florida you would know it's more than a sports hall. And I could of swore the Nuernberg Arena in Germany is highly regarded.

When you follow enough boxing you would know that sometimes an offer is made purposely low. Just so it can rejected. It's a form of ducking.

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Fenster

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

If I remember correctly Reid had 3 high profile fights after the Calzaghe fight.

Simple question for you. Do you think Reid deserved a rematch? A simple yes or no is required.

I couldn't care less whether he "deserved" a rematch. He was offered it. He refused it. The proof is there for everyone to see.

What high profile fights? He was fighting in sports halls.

If you ever been to the Times Forum in Florida you would know it's more than a sports hall. And I could of swore the Nuernberg Arena in Germany is highly regarded.

When you follow enough boxing you would know that sometimes an offer is made purposely low. Just so it can rejected. It's a form of ducking.

OK. As you follow lots of boxing why don't you tell me what Robin Reid's purses were after the Calzaghe fight?

There's 11 before Ottke and another two before Lacy.. a boxing expert like yourself will obviously know this

Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Yeh,I know its been said but it is fact....Ricardo Lopez.I think to a very large degree that the lower weights and in his case,the lowest of weight classes,is held against Lopez,No,not with malice but rather a reflection of the mass media and fans over looking "The lower weight" classes in favor of a bigger = better mind set.Lopez was a superior technician through & through who was born into a ignored division,walloed in obscurity early and was buried on some of Don Kings cards.Of course when you ride with the likes of Norris,JCC,Tyson, etc that was enevitable??

The man could flat out box his opponents ears flat the fawk off.As far as Who was a better fighter when they retired undefeated??Calzaghe,Marciano,Lopez etc?Just watch them fight,watch the execution and timing,precission punching,Ring Generalship,footwork and ever increasing tempo with combination pin point shots.Imo and with no slights on either Joe or Marciano....it is no contest at the end of the day.I mean,put biases and judgement aside and just watch a handfull of fights close.Only thing missing on Finito was a lab coat and a pointer inside of the ring.

Brilliant post Spicoli I agree.

Originally Posted by Fenster

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Fenster

I couldn't care less whether he "deserved" a rematch. He was offered it. He refused it. The proof is there for everyone to see.

What high profile fights? He was fighting in sports halls.

If you ever been to the Times Forum in Florida you would know it's more than a sports hall. And I could of swore the Nuernberg Arena in Germany is highly regarded.

When you follow enough boxing you would know that sometimes an offer is made purposely low. Just so it can rejected. It's a form of ducking.

OK. As you follow lots of boxing why don't you tell me what Robin Reid's purses were after the Calzaghe fight?

There's 11 before Ottke and another two before Lacy.. a boxing expert like yourself will obviously know this

He made some k's.

Originally Posted by Fenster

This doesn't really answer my questions (no disrespect Mick).

None taken.

Originally Posted by Fenster

It highlights that the smaller weight divisions are WEAK in numbers.

Weak in numbers as far as MONEY goes, they don't have the financial back up from networks and promoters like the bigger guys do.
I mean come on the 1st million dollar pay day to the little guys was Carbajal-Gonzalez II, when Carbajal was paid that. This was in 1994 by this time Tyson, Holy, ODLH were already speding all of their millions.

This hurts the division as whole, it hurts the careers because careers are shorter lived there. Therefore careers not possible to match up vs. the bigger guys especially today.

Originally Posted by Fenster

Lopez has no great legends on his resume, right?
Lopez has no P4P great wins on his resume, right?

I think you would agree that a fighters greatness is not only measure by his opposition but by an all around career.

Here's what I'm trying to get at.
The IBHoF has inducted 212 fighters take a wild guess at how many of those 212 fighters are either Minimumweight or Light Flyweight (which are the 2 div. Lopez fought in)
The answer is 3 not including Lopez. 3 Fighters that is insane considering how many great fighters have been in those 2 divisions.
I'll even go a step further including Flyweights there are a total of 4 Modern and 6 Oldtimer fighters that gives it a total overall of 13 fighters not including Lopez out of 212.
Do you guys really believe there are ONLY 13 fighters in those 3 weight classes who should be in the Hall?

I think not, fighters like Jung-Koo Chang, Yoko Gushiken, Masao Ohba, Luis Estaba, Hilario Zapata, Myung-Yoo Wu, Chartchai Chionoi, Santos Laciar, Betulio Gonzalez, Chana Porpaion, Zolani Petelo, Rosendo Alvarez... I can go on and on and these fighters deserve the credit just as much and certainly more then 1 or 2 who ARE IN the hall.

But sadly the hall keeps pushing them to the back burner.
So you see it's REALLY hard to say what great fighter does he have that makes him great? It's like not even fair to ask that because if you are going by the hall and what's said then that makes it none.

But if you the person would like rate his opponents and go through records and take the time to look for footage of some of his opponents the way I have then I def. invite anyone to see the following opponets and take the time to find them on video and do a bit of research on these guys.
Ohashi, Saman, Kermin, Sanchez, Alvarez, Grisby, Vorapin & Petelo.

I just think overall the lower weight guys are assed out when it comes to ratings, paydays, status etc. etc. etc.
If people would take the time to study them and get footage things would be different. But in the end again, I blame the hall for letting this happen.

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Originally Posted by Fenster

This doesn't really answer my questions (no disrespect Mick).

None taken.

Originally Posted by Fenster

It highlights that the smaller weight divisions are WEAK in numbers.

Weak in numbers as far as MONEY goes, they don't have the financial back up from networks and promoters like the bigger guys do.
I mean come on the 1st million dollar pay day to the little guys was Carbajal-Gonzalez II, when Carbajal was paid that. This was in 1994 by this time Tyson, Holy, ODLH were already speding all of their millions.

This hurts the division as whole, it hurts the careers because careers are shorter lived there. Therefore careers not possible to match up vs. the bigger guys especially today.

Originally Posted by Fenster

Lopez has no great legends on his resume, right?
Lopez has no P4P great wins on his resume, right?

I think you would agree that a fighters greatness is not only measure by his opposition but by an all around career.

Here's what I'm trying to get at.
The IBHoF has inducted 212 fighters take a wild guess at how many of those 212 fighters are either Minimumweight or Light Flyweight (which are the 2 div. Lopez fought in)
The answer is 3 not including Lopez. 3 Fighters that is insane considering how many great fighters have been in those 2 divisions.
I'll even go a step further including Flyweights there are a total of 4 Modern and 6 Oldtimer fighters that gives it a total overall of 13 fighters not including Lopez out of 212.
Do you guys really believe there are ONLY 13 fighters in those 3 weight classes who should be in the Hall?

I think not, fighters like Jung-Koo Chang, Yoko Gushiken, Masao Ohba, Luis Estaba, Hilario Zapata, Myung-Yoo Wu, Chartchai Chionoi, Santos Laciar, Betulio Gonzalez, Chana Porpaion, Zolani Petelo, Rosendo Alvarez... I can go on and on and these fighters deserve the credit just as much and certainly more then 1 or 2 who ARE IN the hall.

But sadly the hall keeps pushing them to the back burner.
So you see it's REALLY hard to say what great fighter does he have that makes him great? It's like not even fair to ask that because if you are going by the hall and what's said then that makes it none.

But if you the person would like rate his opponents and go through records and take the time to look for footage of some of his opponents the way I have then I def. invite anyone to see the following opponets and take the time to find them on video and do a bit of research on these guys.
Ohashi, Saman, Kermin, Sanchez, Alvarez, Grisby, Vorapin & Petelo.

I just think overall the lower weight guys are assed out when it comes to ratings, paydays, status etc. etc. etc.
If people would take the time to study them and get footage things would be different. But in the end again, I blame the hall for letting this happen.

good post Mick.. simple reason is that they are not from UK and US... those are great fighters base on achievements not by popularity...

Mick, I'm trying to show how HYPOCRITICAL boxing fans are when it comes to assessing fighters, not questioning the greatness of Lopez.

Is Lopez a great fighter? Of course he is. But he proved this by remaining unbeaten through 52 fights and defending his "world" title 20 odd times. He didn't do it by beating any fellow all-time greats or P4P stars.

And yet the very same people lauding up Lopez are the FIRST to rip a fighters record apart and rubbish is opposition in order to downgrade his status.

Just look at all the muppets currently slagging Calzaghe to bits.

When I said "weak" i meant numbers wise. The amount of fighters (could be wrong). There is no strawweight division in America.. and that is probably the answer to why the little guys get a lack of recognition from the Hall

Originally Posted by paddy448

joe calzaghes recent retirement got me thinkin,who is the greastest ever fighter that retired with an unbeaten record

Rocky Marciano. The greatest, and only undefeated Heavyweight Champion ever.

Neither reid nor hopkins deserved a rematch. They both fought shit.