Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Taeth

I am the idiot? First of all I have refrained from name calling because it would be too easy with you. Second I was talking about the cross, not right hand when I mentioned Pacquiao, obviously he doesn't ahve one of the best right hands in the sport.

Why is Hopkins right hand not used enough? He landed it very, very effectively on Trinidad, De La Hoya, Jermain Taylor, Calzaghe, Tarver, Pavlik. They are all really good fighter, and it landed effectively on them. Marquez has foughten one guy in these guys league, so how can you compare anything he has done with what Hopkins does? I am not saying he isn't signficantly better than his competition, but his competition makes Rafael look at a lot better than really skilled opponents would. Roy also landed his cross a hell of a lot against Calzaghe more, often than Kessler or Hopkins, he has lost power on it, but its still accurate, perfectly timed, and amazingly fast. Hopkins and Roy Jones will be able to land their cross on anyone, even at this stage of their career, Marquez wouldn't.

Also you have failed to name guys with better right hands, you still have provided evidence of your outlandish claim that Rafael Marquez has the best right hand in the business. Which leads me back to the actual topic of arguement, and the fact of the matter is that Manny would knock Marquez out.

I said right hand from the beginning. That was pretty clear. Why you decided to mention Pacquiao's right and than back track, i have no idea. Like I said a couple of posts back your not really familar with Rafael Marquez career. So really your not fit to discuss him. Vazquez is not the only p4p fighter Marquez has beaten. Mark Johnson was a p4p fighter who hadn't been beaten in 11 years. Marquez out pointed him and than knocked him out. He also knocked out the unbeaten and underrated Tim Austin. Who was boarderline p4p. But you don't recongnize the names. So to you they don't count.

I didn't back track, I just never mentioned pacquiao's right hand, you didn't read what I was saying and you assumed when I was talkign about Pacquiao that I was talking about the right hand when I was talking about the cross. Second you have no idea about how much Rafael Marquez I've watched, I guarantee I watch more fights than you do. Also when was Mark Johnson a legitimate p4p fighter? I can easily name 10-15 guys better than him at any period in his career, he hadn't foughten anybody before Rafael Marquez, he didn't have credibility, there are so many better fighters that were out there in the late 90's and early 00's.

Rafael Marquez will die! Seriously... Pacquiao schooled Israel Vazquez who beats Rafael Marquez....

Originally Posted by Taeth

Sorry, when was Mark Johnson a legitimate number 6p4p? When was he even in it with Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Mosley, ODLH, Trinidad, Quartey, Vargas, Mayweather, Barrera, Morales, Lewis were all at very strong points in their career, there was also Winky Wright, JLC, Casamayor, JMM, Vernon Forest, Zab Judah, Corales, Kostya Tszyu, Ike Quartey, Ricardo Lopez... I don't how either of them legitimately made on that list because they didn't belong there.

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1999 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
3. Felix Trinidad
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Shane Mosley
6. Mark Johnson
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Erik Morales
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Stevie Johnston

Whether or not you think he should of been there or not, the fact is he was.

Mark Johnson was a badass back in the day. He wasn't at his best versus Rafa but also 118 was a bit much.

JMM's just the better of the brothers IMO, P4P at their best I'd always take Pacquaio over Rafa. If you want to get into 122 and all that I'd still probably take Pacquaio but he's improved a lot over the fighter he was there.

Rafa has like 3 fights at 122, he lost two of them. pac has ko'ed everybody he fought at 122 except for sanchez, that fight resulted in a technical draw after six rounds. However sanchez did every dirty tactic on the dark book to avoid getting knocked out in six rounds.

Rafa was a great 118 fighter and pac never fought at 118, pac was so weight drain at 112 he skipped the 118 division.

Pac was about 9-0-1 with 9 ko's at 122, Rafa is about 1-2 at 122 pounds. Seriously Rafa would not be able to handle pac at 122 but anywhere below he would have a chance because pac out grew those division and risked fighting weight drained.

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Taeth

I am the idiot? First of all I have refrained from name calling because it would be too easy with you. Second I was talking about the cross, not right hand when I mentioned Pacquiao, obviously he doesn't ahve one of the best right hands in the sport.

Why is Hopkins right hand not used enough? He landed it very, very effectively on Trinidad, De La Hoya, Jermain Taylor, Calzaghe, Tarver, Pavlik. They are all really good fighter, and it landed effectively on them. Marquez has foughten one guy in these guys league, so how can you compare anything he has done with what Hopkins does? I am not saying he isn't signficantly better than his competition, but his competition makes Rafael look at a lot better than really skilled opponents would. Roy also landed his cross a hell of a lot against Calzaghe more, often than Kessler or Hopkins, he has lost power on it, but its still accurate, perfectly timed, and amazingly fast. Hopkins and Roy Jones will be able to land their cross on anyone, even at this stage of their career, Marquez wouldn't.

Also you have failed to name guys with better right hands, you still have provided evidence of your outlandish claim that Rafael Marquez has the best right hand in the business. Which leads me back to the actual topic of arguement, and the fact of the matter is that Manny would knock Marquez out.

I said right hand from the beginning. That was pretty clear. Why you decided to mention Pacquiao's right and than back track, i have no idea. Like I said a couple of posts back your not really familar with Rafael Marquez career. So really your not fit to discuss him. Vazquez is not the only p4p fighter Marquez has beaten. Mark Johnson was a p4p fighter who hadn't been beaten in 11 years. Marquez out pointed him and than knocked him out. He also knocked out the unbeaten and underrated Tim Austin. Who was boarderline p4p. But you don't recongnize the names. So to you they don't count.

I didn't back track, I just never mentioned pacquiao's right hand, you didn't read what I was saying and you assumed when I was talkign about Pacquiao that I was talking about the right hand when I was talking about the cross. Second you have no idea about how much Rafael Marquez I've watched, I guarantee I watch more fights than you do. Also when was Mark Johnson a legitimate p4p fighter? I can easily name 10-15 guys better than him at any period in his career, he hadn't foughten anybody before Rafael Marquez, he didn't have credibility, there are so many better fighters that were out there in the late 90's and early 00's.

I rest my case. If you knew who Johnson was you would not make such a stupid statement. This is exactly why I tell you muthafukkas to actually watch a fighter fight. Instead of just reading his record. That way you can have your own opinion about him instead of going off some one else. And it stops you from making stupid posts that make you look like an idiot

Originally Posted by OumaFan

Mark Johnson was a badass back in the day. He wasn't at his best versus Rafa but also 118 was a bit much.

JMM's just the better of the brothers IMO, P4P at their best I'd always take Pacquaio over Rafa. If you want to get into 122 and all that I'd still probably take Pacquaio but he's improved a lot over the fighter he was there.

He did comeback to hand Fernando Montiel his first loss. So he was obviously still an excellent fighter

Originally Posted by reinvaldez

Originally Posted by ICB

Originally Posted by reinvaldez

Well, there's only one answer to this rumor. Let them see each other on rings. OK.

Huh ? what rumour ?

So sorry it may be proper to say speculation? right?

lol - RM should fight Manny at a 143 catchweight

No way Rafa can take a good left hand to the chin from Pac.

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Pound for pound Rafael hits harder than Juan. If Pacquiao were to trade with him, Pacquiao would get knocked out. Pacquiao has always been a sucker for the right hand. Rafael's right is the best in Boxing.

this is a noobish post from someone who is a veteran in saddo.

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Taeth

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Pound for pound Rafael hits harder than Juan. If Pacquiao were to trade with him, Pacquiao would get knocked out. Pacquiao has always been a sucker for the right hand. Rafael's right is the best in Boxing.

What the hell have you been smoking? Rafael's right is not the best in boxing, its not as good as Juan Manuel's. Floyd Mayweather, Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Pavlik, David Haye, Wladimir when he uses it all have better crosses. Rafael is a great left handed fighter, but his right isn't all that, and if he traded with Pacquiao, its him not Pacquiao who has durability issues, and its Pacquiao who hits harder than Rafael at 122 p4p.

What durability issues? He's been stopped once in recent years. And that was clearly a pre-mature stoppage against a p4p fighter. The losses early in his career can't be used against him cuz he's not the same fighter. Just like Pacquiao's early stoppage losses can't be used against him. Rafael can be hurt. I'm not saying he has the greatest chin. But to say he's not durable is typical stupidity coming from you. To say Rafael's right hand ain't all that shows how big of an idiot you really are. Pacquiao has looked greatly lately. But that's cuz he's been facing fighters incapable of hitting him. But if you hit him you can hurt him. Rafael would hit him. And he would hurt him.

the p4p fighter you're mentioning is izzy vasquez and to tell you as a matter of factly izzy is the former sparring mate of manny! at that level since he was the sparring partner of manny, and since he ko'ed rafa, then pac could also do it if not more easily.

it's not really power that can beat manny if ever they met at that same weight back then. it's intelligence. jmm made a fight out of manny because he studied manny's moves, seen the right angles etc. and countered him brilliantly.in short he did it with brains and what is more impressive was he did it under pressure. rafa is not as smart as his brother. imo under pressure just like what happened to the izzy fight, and considering manny as more agressive, and in fact more powerful in the 122pnds than izzy, it's him who will get ktfo not manny! vd i thought you know your idols well? it seems it's your blind nuthuggery that keep stretching the facts huh?

rafa is indeed durable. if you studied his demeanor and compared it to jmm kd (pac-jmm 1)to rafa kd or tko by izzy, rafa looks more disoriented than jmm. his legs were wobbly, his face red, his eyes is not there, you're even lucky the referee stopped the fight or he could have suffered serious damage! jmm in that fight which was called a draw, stood up and iv'e seen his legs not wobbly unlike his brother. taeth was right rafa really have a suspect jaw1 it seems facing power punchers there is a good chance rafa will get ktfo!

plus all the tko loss of pac happened due to body shots. he did get kd before, but it's you who said that that was the past and pac is not the same fighter anymore. saying rafa will ko pac with his right hand is like saying he should be ranked higher than his brother p4p! you gotta be an illusionist!

Originally Posted by mad_takamura

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Taeth

What the hell have you been smoking? Rafael's right is not the best in boxing, its not as good as Juan Manuel's. Floyd Mayweather, Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Pavlik, David Haye, Wladimir when he uses it all have better crosses. Rafael is a great left handed fighter, but his right isn't all that, and if he traded with Pacquiao, its him not Pacquiao who has durability issues, and its Pacquiao who hits harder than Rafael at 122 p4p.

What durability issues? He's been stopped once in recent years. And that was clearly a pre-mature stoppage against a p4p fighter. The losses early in his career can't be used against him cuz he's not the same fighter. Just like Pacquiao's early stoppage losses can't be used against him. Rafael can be hurt. I'm not saying he has the greatest chin. But to say he's not durable is typical stupidity coming from you. To say Rafael's right hand ain't all that shows how big of an idiot you really are. Pacquiao has looked greatly lately. But that's cuz he's been facing fighters incapable of hitting him. But if you hit him you can hurt him. Rafael would hit him. And he would hurt him.

the p4p fighter you're mentioning is izzy vasquez and to tell you as a matter of factly izzy is the former sparring mate of manny! at that level since he was the sparring partner of manny, and since he ko'ed rafa, then pac could also do it if not more easily.

it's not really power that can beat manny if ever they met at that same weight back then. it's intelligence. jmm made a fight out of manny because he studied manny's moves, seen the right angles etc. and countered him brilliantly.in short he did it with brains and what is more impressive was he did it under pressure. rafa is not as smart as his brother. imo under pressure just like what happened to the izzy fight, and considering manny as more agressive, and in fact more powerful in the 122pnds than izzy, it's him who will get ktfo not manny! vd i thought you know your idols well? it seems it's your blind nuthuggery that keep stretching the facts huh?

rafa is indeed durable. if you studied his demeanor and compared it to jmm kd (pac-jmm 1)to rafa kd or tko by izzy, rafa looks more disoriented than jmm. his legs were wobbly, his face red, his eyes is not there, you're even lucky the referee stopped the fight or he could have suffered serious damage! jmm in that fight which was called a draw, stood up and iv'e seen his legs not wobbly unlike his brother. taeth was right rafa really have a suspect jaw1 it seems facing power punchers there is a good chance rafa will get ktfo!

plus all the tko loss of pac happened due to body shots. he did get kd before, but it's you who said that that was the past and pac is not the same fighter anymore. saying rafa will ko pac with his right hand is like saying he should be ranked higher than his brother p4p! you gotta be an illusionist!

well said.

btw, you can't expect an intelligent answer from VD all the time. When pac is involved, even if the opponent is Agapito Sanchez, he'd say Pac will get demolished. AS far as I can remember, he hasn't predicted correctly any pac fight.

lastly, I won't make a comment regarding hypothetical matches especially matches that won't happen(e.g. Pac vs RM) coz it's simply not practical. IMO.

Answers would usually be biased and sometimes debaters come to a point of even disrespecting fighters just to win an argument.

Had pac not won against Diaz, DLH and Hatton, can we be truly convinced that he will win against Rafa? Our judgements are usually tainted with a fighter's current performance and I've seen it happening here in Saddo countless times already.

Pac will have a hard time against Rafa for sure.

I can't wait for Izzy-Rafa 4. When is that happening anyway? I say Vazquez beats Marquez for the 3rd time. Rafa can't figure out Izzy's left hook, I don't think he will ever. He's so vunerable with a left hand.

Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION

I can't wait for Izzy-Rafa 4. When is that happening anyway? I say Vazquez beats Marquez for the 3rd time. Rafa can't figure out Izzy's left hook, I don't think he will ever. He's so vunerable with a left hand.

I don't think it is happening last i heard Rafael Marquez was supposed to fight Jhonny Gonzalez, and then they were trying to set up Israel Vasquez vs Juan Manuel Lopez, whichever fight they choose i just want to see them back in the ring.

Originally Posted by mad_takamura

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Pound for pound Rafael hits harder than Juan. If Pacquiao were to trade with him, Pacquiao would get knocked out. Pacquiao has always been a sucker for the right hand. Rafael's right is the best in Boxing.

this is a noobish post from someone who is a veteran in saddo.

Even in alt mode you post garbage. Pound for pound Rafael does hit harder than Juan. It's the reason is KO% is higher. Hell, Juan himself said his brother hits harder.

And Pac is and will always be a sucker for the right hand. Provided he's fighting someone capable of actually hitting him

Originally Posted by OumaFan

Mark Johnson was a badass back in the day. He wasn't at his best versus Rafa but also 118 was a bit much.

JMM's just the better of the brothers IMO, P4P at their best I'd always take Pacquaio over Rafa. If you want to get into 122 and all that I'd still probably take Pacquaio but he's improved a lot over the fighter he was there.

That's all I've been saying.