Thread: Talent, Skill and Craft

From my reading over the last few years of boxing blogs/websites/forums etc I've discovered that many fans struggle to properly identify certain characteristics and concepts in the best way. Among other things the word "skill" is often very poorly used in application to boxers. Let me propose some distinctions that I hope can make our discussions smoother and our misunderstandings fewer.

Talent-This word is best defined for our purposes as "a natural endowment or ability of superior quality." In other words this is a God-given gift one was born with or that developed so soon as to be indistinguishable from being born with it. Talent cannot be taught, it can only be cultivated. One cannot teach height, reach, fast hands, fast feet, natural balance, a good chin, reflexes, the ability to take punishment, stamina, agility, durability, hand-eye coordination, explosive power or the ability to learn as examples. This probably also applies to more mental/psychological concepts related to boxing including adapting to discipline, tenacity, resilience, spatial awareness, comfort with repetition and willing self-denial.

Now of course everyone has these characteristics to one degree or another, right? What makes them a talent is if the endowment is of superior quality.

Skill-The best definition here is "a trade or technique requiring special training or manual proficiency." In other words a skill is a technique that can be taught to most people. In boxing these would be basic things like a proper stance, catching the opponent's jab, slipping a punch, jabbing with both a step and stationary with a flexed knee, throwing a straight right hand, turning one's head when one closes with a foe, pushing off the right foot to step left, digging one's toes into the canvas when power punching. Just about anyone, regardless of the talent level can be acquire techniques like these.

More advanced boxing skills would include combination punching, punching while moving, shifting one's weight properly to acquire maximum torque while punching, bobbing and weaving, cutting off the ring, riding with a punch, feinting, staying balanced in transition, pivoting, maintaining optimal distance, fighting in an arc (not a straight line), identifying optimal counters for given situations and reversing a foe along the ropes. While these are more difficult, they again must be taught. Nobody is born with these traits.

But within the idea of a a "skill" there are gradations that can only be achieved by the properly taught and naturally talented. For example. It is one thing to land three consecutive hooks while staying well balanced while shadowboxing. It is another, higher level of proficiency to do so to a heavy bag, another, higher level yet to do so while sparring, another to do so while fighting an amateur, another to do so while fighting a novice professional, another, higher level to do so against a journeyman, another to do so to a contender, another to do so to a champion, another to do so to a great fighter etc. etc. etc.

In other words executing a triple hook against Arturo Gatti is not the same skill as executing it against Pernell Whittaker. In boxing, skills can ONLY be compared if one finds the level of competition or difficulty approximately constant.

That brings us to the last of these concepts, Craft. I think the most applicable definition of this for boxing approximates that of the concept of "tradecraft" in espionage; "skill in deception and trickery; guile; cunning, or skill acquired through experience." In other words this is largely a mental concept that involves the application of skill and/or talent. What do I mean? Well, throwing a left hook is an acquired skill. The power and speed involved are a talent and knowing WHEN and WHERE to throw it in a fight is Craft. Craft is understanding one's own talents and skills, as well as those of the other guy, and anticipating and applying them so as to take advantage of yours, minimize the impact of your foe's and win a given fight. BHOP realizing the way to beat Pavlik is to keep him turning and being able to make that happen is an example of craft. Juan Manuel Marquez surviving Juan Diaz's onslaught in the third round of their first fight, pinned on the ropes but catching punches like he was working the mitts while thinking of the right way to beat this guy was craft.

Intentionally missing with a punch to get a guy to move to a certain spot so you can land the punch you really want to is craft. Seeing a referee is on the right side and landing a hip shot on the other is craft. Joe Walcott feinting before he threw a left hook for six rounds and then in the seventh throwing it without a feint and KOing Ezzard Charles is craft. Ray Robinson retreating, retreating, retreating against LaMotta in 1951 because he knew Lamotta's legs going forward weren't as good as his own going backwards, and the more he made Jake move the better he'd have it was craft.

Craft, like skill, can only be measured by the quality of competition faced. Outcrafting Arturo Gatti isn't the same thing as outcrafting Pernell Whittaker.

Let me finish with some examples. Roy Jones had immense talent, mediocre skill for a top fighter, but decent craft. He knew what he could do in his prime. But when his talents waned? He fell off a cliff. Pernell Whittaker had great talent and exceptional defensive skill which he demonstrated against Julio Cesar Chavez and Azumah Nelson. Juan Manuel Marquez and BHOP really aren't extraordinary athletic or boxing talents. What they have are exceptional skills and exceptional craft. They have some things they do well and they find ways to make the other guy play their game. They aren't remotely in their physical primes in terms of talent. But skills and craft survive.

FWIW

Good, well thought out read, Marble, it makes me think however, that sometimes Talent, Skill and Craft get tossed out of the ring, and what it all boils down to is being able to 'fight'. A good example of that might be Dempsey-Firpo, Jack probably thought he was back in a saloon in a barroom brawl in the Mid-west, like I said sometimes you've just gotta suck it up, and be able to fight.

A few other examples:
George Foreman vs Ron Lyle
Ali vs Frazier III (da thrilla)
Marciano vs. Walcott I

you guys know alot about boxing. Knowledgeable, informative and humble. Nice to be in good company.

Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Good, well thought out read, Marble, it makes me think however, that sometimes Talent, Skill and Craft get tossed out of the ring, and what it all boils down to is being able to 'fight'. A good example of that might be Dempsey-Firpo, Jack probably thought he was back in a saloon in a barroom brawl in the Mid-west, like I said sometimes you've just gotta suck it up, and be able to fight.

A few other examples:
George Foreman vs Ron Lyle
Ali vs Frazier III (da thrilla)
Marciano vs. Walcott I

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I didn't intend that these three concepts captured the sport or a fighter completely. Genuine toughness, a willingness to hang in there, a recognition that "this is the life we have chosen" and that it requires in Teddy Atlas phrase that a "man behave like a fighter" all count.

What's one of the truest things ever said about boxing? Jack Dempsey's "A champion is a man who gets up when he can't." I don't know if that is in someone's DNA or is learned or what, but it is special.

There is something so elemental about the Thrilla I don't even have the words for it. It felt like men fighting not just to a KO win, but literally to the death. Ali's gathering of himself in the sixty seconds after the 11th (?) round there when he was absolutely an exhausted and beaten man is one of the the great feats in boxing. But I have no idea how he he did it.

Originally Posted by Pavlik

you guys know alot about boxing. Knowledgeable, informative and humble. Nice to be in good company.

I can only say this is the most pleasant and respectful group I have found. It is also extremely insightful on the sport. This place is a pleasure.

http://michaelmindes.com/wisdom-wayne-gretzky-quotes

You don't make it to the elite by practicing one hour a week. Look at anybody who dominated a sport. They wouldn't have even got a sniff of the pros, if they hadn't started at a young age and hadn't dedicated their lives to that sport.


This could apply to any pro athlete in any sport not just hockey.

Wayne Gretzky is legendary on the ice. He did not become a legend overnight and had no physical advantages. When he began in the NHL, he stood 6ft tall and weighed in at 160 pounds. Many critics claimed that Wayne Gretzky was “too small, too wiry, and too slow to be a force in the NHL.” The critics were absolutely correct about The Great One’s size. The critics did not account for hard work, intelligence, knowledge of the game, and vision. Let’s hear directly from Wayne Gretzky’s quotes, and look into their wisdom.

“The only way a kid is going to practice is if it’s total fun for him… and it was for me.” – Wayne Gretzky

The popularity of the “10,000 hours of practice to become an expert” idea is on the rise. This is not an hour of practice repeated 10,000 times. It is 10,000 hours of increasingly difficult tasks. To practice this much it not only needs to be “total fun” for a child, but it also needs to be “total fun” for adults. To become an expert, practice every day without fail:

One hour per day requires 27 years 139 days to become an expert
Two hours per day requires 13 years 252 days to become an expert
Three hours per day requires 9 years 46 days to become an expert
Four hours per day requires 6 years 308 days to become an expert
Are you willing to commit that consistent effort into becoming an expert? Only if you love it. If you are not willing to commit the effort, do not expect children to commit such effort.

“The highest compliment that you can pay me is to say that I work hard every day, that I never dog it.” – Wayne Gretzky

The harder you work every day, the better you will become. In Wayne Gretzky’s auto-biography he said:

“All I wanted to do in the winters was be on the ice. I’d get up in the morning, skate from 7:00 to 8:30, go to school, come home at 3:30, stay on the ice until my mom insisted I come in for dinner, eat in my skates, and then go back out until 9:00. On Saturdays and Sundays we’d have huge games, but nighttime became my time. It was a sort of unwritten rule around the neighborhood that I was to be out there myself or with my dad.”

With that desire to skate, play hockey, and practice, it is not a surprise that Wayne Gretzky is now recognized as the best hockey player ever. That is 6 hours a day of practice in the winter. If the winter lasts 4 months in Canada it would have taken him almost 14 years to become a true expert. Since he practiced starting at 3 years old, he was able to begin his NHL career at 18.

“I wasn’t naturally gifted in terms of size and speed; everything I did in hockey I worked for, and that’s the way I’ll be as a coach.” – Wayne Gretzky

You need to expect results from hard work and proper practice. If you are frustrated with your skill level, start working hard and improvements will come. I started this blog to improve my writing skills. I loved to write when I was younger, read and wrote a lot as a Philosophy major in college, but I still feel that my skills are insufficient. Ask yourself, what do I want to improve upon in my life? Write down five things you want to be better at, choose one you love and get started.

“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” – Wayne Gretzky

This is absolutely true. Listen to your gut! Whatever your intuition is telling you to go after, stop debating, and go after it!

Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer

Wayne Gretzky Quotes – Learn from the wisdom of Wayne Gretzky

You don't make it to the elite by practicing one hour a week. Look at anybody who dominated a sport. They wouldn't have even got a sniff of the pros, if they hadn't started at a young age and hadn't dedicated their lives to that sport.


This could apply to any pro athlete in any sport not just hockey.

Wayne Gretzky is legendary on the ice. He did not become a legend overnight and had no physical advantages. When he began in the NHL, he stood 6ft tall and weighed in at 160 pounds. Many critics claimed that Wayne Gretzky was “too small, too wiry, and too slow to be a force in the NHL.” The critics were absolutely correct about The Great One’s size. The critics did not account for hard work, intelligence, knowledge of the game, and vision. Let’s hear directly from Wayne Gretzky’s quotes, and look into their wisdom.

“The only way a kid is going to practice is if it’s total fun for him… and it was for me.” – Wayne Gretzky

The popularity of the “10,000 hours of practice to become an expert” idea is on the rise. This is not an hour of practice repeated 10,000 times. It is 10,000 hours of increasingly difficult tasks. To practice this much it not only needs to be “total fun” for a child, but it also needs to be “total fun” for adults. To become an expert, practice every day without fail:

One hour per day requires 27 years 139 days to become an expert
Two hours per day requires 13 years 252 days to become an expert
Three hours per day requires 9 years 46 days to become an expert
Four hours per day requires 6 years 308 days to become an expert
Are you willing to commit that consistent effort into becoming an expert? Only if you love it. If you are not willing to commit the effort, do not expect children to commit such effort.

“The highest compliment that you can pay me is to say that I work hard every day, that I never dog it.” – Wayne Gretzky

The harder you work every day, the better you will become. In Wayne Gretzky’s auto-biography he said:

“All I wanted to do in the winters was be on the ice. I’d get up in the morning, skate from 7:00 to 8:30, go to school, come home at 3:30, stay on the ice until my mom insisted I come in for dinner, eat in my skates, and then go back out until 9:00. On Saturdays and Sundays we’d have huge games, but nighttime became my time. It was a sort of unwritten rule around the neighborhood that I was to be out there myself or with my dad.”

With that desire to skate, play hockey, and practice, it is not a surprise that Wayne Gretzky is now recognized as the best hockey player ever. That is 6 hours a day of practice in the winter. If the winter lasts 4 months in Canada it would have taken him almost 14 years to become a true expert. Since he practiced starting at 3 years old, he was able to begin his NHL career at 18.

“I wasn’t naturally gifted in terms of size and speed; everything I did in hockey I worked for, and that’s the way I’ll be as a coach.” – Wayne Gretzky

You need to expect results from hard work and proper practice. If you are frustrated with your skill level, start working hard and improvements will come. I started this blog to improve my writing skills. I loved to write when I was younger, read and wrote a lot as a Philosophy major in college, but I still feel that my skills are insufficient. Ask yourself, what do I want to improve upon in my life? Write down five things you want to be better at, choose one you love and get started.

“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” – Wayne Gretzky

This is absolutely true. Listen to your gut! Whatever your intuition is telling you to go after, stop debating, and go after it!

NICE! I first heard about the 10,000 hours notion in Gladwell's "Outliers" several years ago. The concept sure makes sense!

I would associate these fighter with these traits defined in your post:-
Talent = Andre Ward
Skill = Floyd Maywether
Craft = B Hop
Heart = Gatti

Originally Posted by Master

I would associate these fighter with these traits defined in your post:-
Talent = Andre Ward
Skill = Floyd Maywether
Craft = B Hop
Heart = Gatti

It's a good question as to who personafies these traits best.

I'd respectfully disagree with you about Talent = Andre Ward. I somewhat equate talent with natural athleticism as it relates to boxing, I'm not sure Ward is the perfect embodiment of natural athleticism. I'd associate Andre Ward with Skill.

Originally Posted by Master

I would associate these fighter with these traits defined in your post:-
Talent = Andre Ward
Skill = Floyd Maywether
Craft = B Hop
Heart = Gatti

I think those are all on the money!

I'd substitute Bobby Chacon for Gatti. I always will. It's an old man thing

You could also sub Manny for Ward. The more I rewatch old Manny fights he thrived for a long time on nothing more than physical talent.