Thread: How Many Ali's?

I was watching the Muhammad Ali-Ron Lyle fight on ESPN Classic Tonight and a couple of things struck me.

First Ron Lyle was a pretty darn good boxer. Good jab, slipped punches and parried others well, moved ok for a big man.

Anyway what got me to thinking was watching Ali and trying to figure out how many versions of him we saw. Here's what I mean. For 99.9999% of fighters, even great ones, you watch them at 22 and at 32 and they are the same guy. There may be a slightly different emphasis, they may be slower, they may show signs of being smarter due to experience, but they are still trying to do the same things and win more or less the same way at 32 as they were at 22. Most recently, Juan Manuel Marquez is a good example of this. Go watch his fights against against Agapito Sanchez or Catolino Becerra in 1997 and you recognize the same guy you see today. JMM has changed, like many fighters do as they age, is predictable ways. He gets hit more both because his reflexes have slowed and because punching is now, by necessity, a more important element in his game and so he has to take more chances to land punches. The other thing we see in JMM and in most others is experience enhancing their ability to anticipate and therefore become more effective punchers even as the reflexes fade. (There comes a point where this is no longer true as fighters simply cannot let their hands go, but that's not what I'm discussing here). I am in no way saying anything derogatory about JMM. I think the same applies to Joe Louis or Willie Pep or Henry Armstrong or Archie Moore. Catch those guys a decade apart and they are the same guy fighting the same way.

It doesn't apply to Ali. I think I've got four distinct stages for him.

Pre-Suspension-This man is all legs. He has fast hands, but the division had seen that before (Floyd Patterson). What it hadn't seen was the mobility Ali brought to the table. His movement provided a prohibitive advantage over anyone in the division, and arguably anyone in history.

Post-Suspension-Joe Frazier II-After the suspension Ali's movement was still superior to every other heavyweight and still the key to his game. But it wasn't the same, consistent, flamboyant movement for an entire fight that he showed before. Instead it came in irregular spurts, and in those spurts he was still awfully tough to find. But the consistency was gone.

Rumble in the Jungle-Leon Spinks-In the first round of the Rumble Ali bounces, dances and tries to use movement to dominate Foreman. Along with a lead right hand. With thirty seconds left in the round Ali is huffing and seems to recognize he can't survive bouncing and dancing for fifteen rounds. It is his hands that keep Foreman away for those 30 seconds. In the corner Ali is visibly trying to get his breath. The third version of Ali now appears. He no longer relies on his legs, he relies on his hands. Quick, snappy punches, parrying and blocking rather than slipping, grabbing when he can and often simply keeping a man away by extending his left arm. His ability to just grind and survive also comes into play here and from this point on often it is his hands and his toughness that get him wins. The other factor that now comes into play is Ali has grown to be a gigantic man. 10-15 pounds heavier than at his fleet footed best, but it looks like 20 or 25. (I can't overestimate this last point. If you've seen Ali up close what strikes you is just how large a man he became). For the Lyle fight, the third Norton fight and the Thrilla it is his hands and his toughness and his size that let him win.

Leon Spinks II-This is yet another Ali. By now he is exhibiting symptoms of neurological damage, his balance is deficient and yet somehow, SOMEHOW, Ali summons a memory of his first self and his movement drives that fight. Is he his first self? Of course not. But he looks as mobile, maybe moreso than his second self. It is a staggering, shocking, IMPOSSIBLE performance. And yet there he is in the fifteenth round, still bouncing, still dancing.

Four distinct Ali's

Am I nuts?

It's true. About two years ago I bought the entire career sets of Floyd Mayweather, Juan Manuel Marquez & Shane Mosley and it amazed me how little change all three fighters had shown from start to finish. Probably Mosley more so, which really is madness!

And Ali, also. He was a special fighter in his prime, his balletic ability for a heavyweight is completely unrivalled even to this day.

After that It was all guts and wit. Like you said, he grew to be a big man eventually and actually out weighed many of his opponents during his 2nd career.

He wasn't nearly as un-hittable as some people would like to think, nor as fast. He was awful in his first fight with Fraizer and I think on numerous occasions, further down the road, he outfoxed the judges nearly as much as his opponents. But his intestinal fortitude was ridiculous. Again, something that is probably unrivalled.

Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

It's true. About two years ago I bought the entire career sets of Floyd Mayweather, Juan Manuel Marquez & Shane Mosley and it amazed me how little change all three fighters had shown from start to finish. Probably Mosley more so, which really is madness!

And Ali, also. He was a special fighter in his prime, his balletic ability for a heavyweight is completely unrivalled even to this day.

After that It was all guts and wit. Like you said, he grew to be a big man eventually and actually out weighed many of his opponents during his 2nd career.

He wasn't nearly as un-hittable as some people would like to think, nor as fast. He was awful in his first fight with Fraizer and I think on numerous occasions, further down the road, he outfoxed the judges nearly as much as his opponents. But his intestinal fortitude was ridiculous. Again, something that is probably unrivalled.

Ali's toughness is about the fifth or sixth thing we'd mention when discussing him, right? But maybe it oughtta be first. You're dead on in identifying it as a distinguishing, maybe THE distinguishing factor of the second part of his career.

GREAT pic of Robinson by the way. Looks to me like he's sitting in his famous pink, or as he insisted fuchsia, Cadillac.

Agree with Ali, he did have a novice period which could be included very early on where he was getting knocked down and struggling with southpaw opponents. During this period not many would have given him a chance to become an ATG.

Also we may have missed the prime Ali phase with the combination of speed, foot work (pre-exile) and experience, heart and power (post Ali) without the lay off he would have been unbeatable as he would not have allowed Frazier to develop himself into the champion he became whilst Ali was not allowed to box because of the US government.

PS On a side note why is Bridgette Fonda still hounded by her campaign against the Vietnam war to this day i.e. QVC have taken her off?

Originally Posted by Master

Agree with Ali, he did have a novice period which could be included very early on where he was getting knocked down and struggling with southpaw opponents. During this period not many would have given him a chance to become an ATG.

Also we may have missed the prime Ali phase with the combination of speed, foot work (pre-exile) and experience, heart and power (post Ali) without the lay off he would have been unbeatable as he would not have allowed Frazier to develop himself into the champion he became whilst Ali was not allowed to box because of the US government.

PS On a side note why is Bridgette Fonda still hounded by her campaign against the Vietnam war to this day i.e. QVC have taken her off?

Hard not to guess a still active Ali handles Frazier in say 1968 isn't it?

Jane Fonda. Because she didn't just protest the war. She traveled to North Vietnam in support of the enemy. Men like my Dad, who fought over there, and my Mom will NEVER EVER forgive her. They, just as an example, never had a problem with domestic protesters, but when you literally help the enemy? A different story.

what the hell was that war about anyway?

A-Side Meth maybe

Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

what the hell was that war about anyway?

A-Side Meth maybe

In reality? proxy war between the Commies and the West.