Thread: So What Did We Learn?

George Groves continues to make one think he is the future of the 168's. At some point he's going to have to step up the competition, but for fifteen pro fights? He is on track.

Ricky Burns is one of those moderately talented, well taught, crafty, extremely tough guys. He is without question a fine, classic boxer in the British Tradition, but that isn't his defining characteristic. It is that he's a tough guy. He loves being in the ring almost as much as Johnny Tapia. Just an excellent performance against Michael Katsidis. I wonder if Manny defeats JMM if Burns isn't a logical next fight for Marquez.

Michael Katsidis has been fun to watch. But don't you get the sense we have seen his best and that it is downhill from here?

Pier Cote is one of those electric athletes. He winds up his right hand like he is throwing a baseball. But he is still fast enough to get it home. He reminds me of the Yoriorkis Gamboa of three years ago. Supremely athletic, too confident and vulnerable as hell. But man oh man can he punch!

Lucian Bute looked HUGE to me. He also was in complete control of that fight from the minute it began. No way to know yet, but he might well be the best of the 168's. At worst he is a formidable challenge for the winner of the Ward-Froch battle. Al Bernstein kept talking about how Bute had become a stand in your face, stalk and destroy puncher, but I think that was just how he chose to fight last night. I suspect he would not fight that way against Froch for example.

Glenn Johnson finally got old. His balance stunk, he couldn't get in range, he didn't take punches like he usually does and for the first time I sensed some spiritual . Since Johnson started 32-0 he is 19-16-2. He has been a noble journeyman. Good enough to compete with top fighters, rarely good enough to beat them. he is a throwback to earlier boxing eras who had a dozen guys in each division who usually weren't ranked, but who could compete with anybody, and occasionally surprise someone. Men like Jose Basora and Tiger Jones and Jose Fernando Castro. Glenn you've been one of the backbones of the sport in and out of the ring. Thank You.

James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo. I had this completely wrong. Looking back the right hand Angulo landed was a desperation shot. Everything Perro is know for Kirkland did better. What a glorious fight. I'll bet we never see Angulo as a top guy again. A career changing defeat is my bet. As for Kirkland? I don't know how long he'll last fighting that way, but is there any 154 who you'd pick against him? Hell given how much the 160's suck let's put him in against Sergio right now.

Think Burns could beat JMM at the back of a loss to Pac Man?

Originally Posted by Master

Think Burns could beat JMM at the back of a loss to Pac Man?

I guess I think JMM would think no to take the fight.

Then I look at JMM's age and the beating I expect Pac to lay on him and I wonder.

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

George Groves continues to make one think he is the future of the 168's. At some point he's going to have to step up the competition, but for fifteen pro fights? He is on track.

Ricky Burns is one of those moderately talented, well taught, crafty, extremely tough guys. He is without question a fine, classic boxer in the British Tradition, but that isn't his defining characteristic. It is that he's a tough guy. He loves being in the ring almost as much as Johnny Tapia. Just an excellent performance against Michael Katsidis. I wonder if Manny defeats JMM if Burns isn't a logical next fight for Marquez.

Michael Katsidis has been fun to watch. But don't you get the sense we have seen his best and that it is downhill from here?

Pier Cote is one of those electric athletes. He winds up his right hand like he is throwing a baseball. But he is still fast enough to get it home. He reminds me of the Yoriorkis Gamboa of three years ago. Supremely athletic, too confident and vulnerable as hell. But man oh man can he punch!

Lucian Bute looked HUGE to me. He also was in complete control of that fight from the minute it began. No way to know yet, but he might well be the best of the 168's. At worst he is a formidable challenge for the winner of the Ward-Froch battle. Al Bernstein kept talking about how Bute had become a stand in your face, stalk and destroy puncher, but I think that was just how he chose to fight last night. I suspect he would not fight that way against Froch for example.

Glenn Johnson finally got old. His balance stunk, he couldn't get in range, he didn't take punches like he usually does and for the first time I sensed some spiritual . Since Johnson started 32-0 he is 19-16-2. He has been a noble journeyman. Good enough to compete with top fighters, rarely good enough to beat them. he is a throwback to earlier boxing eras who had a dozen guys in each division who usually weren't ranked, but who could compete with anybody, and occasionally surprise someone. Men like Jose Basora and Tiger Jones and Jose Fernando Castro. Glenn you've been one of the backbones of the sport in and out of the ring. Thank You.

James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo. I had this completely wrong. Looking back the right hand Angulo landed was a desperation shot. Everything Perro is know for Kirkland did better. What a glorious fight. I'll bet we never see Angulo as a top guy again. A career changing defeat is my bet. As for Kirkland? I don't know how long he'll last fighting that way, but is there any 154 who you'd pick against him? Hell given how much the 160's suck let's put him in against Sergio right now.

George Groves - It is not only the brash young fighter who can get carried away by his own self publicity. Whilst Groves afforded Smith the respect due, Paul Smith dismissed Groves record, punch power and ability deriding him as overrated and obsessed with Degale. A trait that seemed to highlight his own complicity in looking past the man who had defeated the guy, who took his title.Post fight George confirmed his own sound judgement in acknowledging his novice status and eagerness to continue learning. You are correct Marble, Groves is definitely one too watch.

Ricky Burns - Very insightful post, you are right Burns clearly loves to be in the ring and his dedication has taken him far.How much further it can take him is open to debate, but i am loving the ride so far. Long may it continue.

Michael Katsidis - He has been great fun to watch and when he fought non Brits i have always cheered him on. His style of non stop pressure will inevitably take its toll and we may well be witnessing the beginning of the end for a true warrior.

Pier Cote - haven't seen him so no comment

Lucian Bute - i have learnt that even against a slowing ageing fighter he is a little too cautious. May well get found out when and if he meets Froch or Ward. Hard to tell as he is far from poor but a little boring and safe to watch.

Glenn Johnson - I wholeheartedly concur Thank You Mr Johnson you are a credit to the sport but maybe its time to hang up the gloves.


James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo - I learnt that nothing is to be taken for granted in this great sport. I learnt that Mexicans really do have BIG hearts. I learnt that a referee can jump in too early or too late in any fight and choosing when to is an inexact science. I learnt that even tho i am an arthtritc disabled 40 year old i can still jump off the sofa and scream at the TV when a first round is that much fun.

I know one thing for sure, after the Pac Man fight and the beating i expect him to get, JMM should stay well away from Brandon Rios .JMM v Burns would seem a very intresting bout though .

James Kirkland deserves a lot of credit for the Angulo fight, he didn't just win, he came back from an early 1st round KD to destroy the highly regarded Perro. Remember that before the fight, most of us armchair "experts" weren't giving Kirkland much of a chance, good job James.

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

George Groves continues to make one think he is the future of the 168's. At some point he's going to have to step up the competition, but for fifteen pro fights? He is on track.

Ricky Burns is one of those moderately talented, well taught, crafty, extremely tough guys. He is without question a fine, classic boxer in the British Tradition, but that isn't his defining characteristic. It is that he's a tough guy. He loves being in the ring almost as much as Johnny Tapia. Just an excellent performance against Michael Katsidis. I wonder if Manny defeats JMM if Burns isn't a logical next fight for Marquez.

Michael Katsidis has been fun to watch. But don't you get the sense we have seen his best and that it is downhill from here?

Pier Cote is one of those electric athletes. He winds up his right hand like he is throwing a baseball. But he is still fast enough to get it home. He reminds me of the Yoriorkis Gamboa of three years ago. Supremely athletic, too confident and vulnerable as hell. But man oh man can he punch!

Lucian Bute looked HUGE to me. He also was in complete control of that fight from the minute it began. No way to know yet, but he might well be the best of the 168's. At worst he is a formidable challenge for the winner of the Ward-Froch battle. Al Bernstein kept talking about how Bute had become a stand in your face, stalk and destroy puncher, but I think that was just how he chose to fight last night. I suspect he would not fight that way against Froch for example.

Glenn Johnson finally got old. His balance stunk, he couldn't get in range, he didn't take punches like he usually does and for the first time I sensed some spiritual . Since Johnson started 32-0 he is 19-16-2. He has been a noble journeyman. Good enough to compete with top fighters, rarely good enough to beat them. he is a throwback to earlier boxing eras who had a dozen guys in each division who usually weren't ranked, but who could compete with anybody, and occasionally surprise someone. Men like Jose Basora and Tiger Jones and Jose Fernando Castro. Glenn you've been one of the backbones of the sport in and out of the ring. Thank You.

James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo. I had this completely wrong. Looking back the right hand Angulo landed was a desperation shot. Everything Perro is know for Kirkland did better. What a glorious fight. I'll bet we never see Angulo as a top guy again. A career changing defeat is my bet. As for Kirkland? I don't know how long he'll last fighting that way, but is there any 154 who you'd pick against him? Hell given how much the 160's suck let's put him in against Sergio right now.

George Groves - It is not only the brash young fighter who can get carried away by his own self publicity. Whilst Groves afforded Smith the respect due, Paul Smith dismissed Groves record, punch power and ability deriding him as overrated and obsessed with Degale. A trait that seemed to highlight his own complicity in looking past the man who had defeated the guy, who took his title.Post fight George confirmed his own sound judgement in acknowledging his novice status and eagerness to continue learning. You are correct Marble, Groves is definitely one too watch.

Ricky Burns - Very insightful post, you are right Burns clearly loves to be in the ring and his dedication has taken him far.How much further it can take him is open to debate, but i am loving the ride so far. Long may it continue.

Michael Katsidis - He has been great fun to watch and when he fought non Brits i have always cheered him on. His style of non stop pressure will inevitably take its toll and we may well be witnessing the beginning of the end for a true warrior.

Pier Cote - haven't seen him so no comment

Lucian Bute - i have learnt that even against a slowing ageing fighter he is a little too cautious. May well get found out when and if he meets Froch or Ward. Hard to tell as he is far from poor but a little boring and safe to watch.

Glenn Johnson - I wholeheartedly concur Thank You Mr Johnson you are a credit to the sport but maybe its time to hang up the gloves.


James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo - I learnt that nothing is to be taken for granted in this great sport. I learnt that Mexicans really do have BIG hearts. I learnt that a referee can jump in too early or too late in any fight and choosing when to is an inexact science. I learnt that even tho i am an arthtritc disabled 40 year old i can still jump off the sofa and scream at the TV when a first round is that much fun.

You have clearly only seen one Lucian Bute fight. You do understand that he has knocked out 8 of his last 10 opponents, right? Although only in limited use last Saturday, he arguably has perhaps the best uppercut in boxing right now. I believe that he carried Johnson or didn't KO Johnson because they are good friends. However, even as friends, unlike Froch, he was in 100% complete control of Johnson.

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

George Groves continues to make one think he is the future of the 168's. At some point he's going to have to step up the competition, but for fifteen pro fights? He is on track.

Ricky Burns is one of those moderately talented, well taught, crafty, extremely tough guys. He is without question a fine, classic boxer in the British Tradition, but that isn't his defining characteristic. It is that he's a tough guy. He loves being in the ring almost as much as Johnny Tapia. Just an excellent performance against Michael Katsidis. I wonder if Manny defeats JMM if Burns isn't a logical next fight for Marquez.

Michael Katsidis has been fun to watch. But don't you get the sense we have seen his best and that it is downhill from here?

Pier Cote is one of those electric athletes. He winds up his right hand like he is throwing a baseball. But he is still fast enough to get it home. He reminds me of the Yoriorkis Gamboa of three years ago. Supremely athletic, too confident and vulnerable as hell. But man oh man can he punch!

Lucian Bute looked HUGE to me. He also was in complete control of that fight from the minute it began. No way to know yet, but he might well be the best of the 168's. At worst he is a formidable challenge for the winner of the Ward-Froch battle. Al Bernstein kept talking about how Bute had become a stand in your face, stalk and destroy puncher, but I think that was just how he chose to fight last night. I suspect he would not fight that way against Froch for example.

Glenn Johnson finally got old. His balance stunk, he couldn't get in range, he didn't take punches like he usually does and for the first time I sensed some spiritual . Since Johnson started 32-0 he is 19-16-2. He has been a noble journeyman. Good enough to compete with top fighters, rarely good enough to beat them. he is a throwback to earlier boxing eras who had a dozen guys in each division who usually weren't ranked, but who could compete with anybody, and occasionally surprise someone. Men like Jose Basora and Tiger Jones and Jose Fernando Castro. Glenn you've been one of the backbones of the sport in and out of the ring. Thank You.

James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo. I had this completely wrong. Looking back the right hand Angulo landed was a desperation shot. Everything Perro is know for Kirkland did better. What a glorious fight. I'll bet we never see Angulo as a top guy again. A career changing defeat is my bet. As for Kirkland? I don't know how long he'll last fighting that way, but is there any 154 who you'd pick against him? Hell given how much the 160's suck let's put him in against Sergio right now.

George Groves is definitely one of the top rising stars at 68. I am higher on him than I am on Edwin Rodriguez for instance. He actually impressed with the way he punched with Paul Smith. I hope Warren does him right by letting him grow into a star. He should fight some veterans on their way out and climb the ladder gradually. Before the Degale fight, I thought Degale was the future of the division. I believe they both are now.


Pier Cote - my first time watching him but damn did he blast Jorge Teron out. Wow. Electric is exactly the correct adjective to describe him.

James Kirkland is a tough guy and it looks like he just has some chemistry with Wolfe that elevates his game. I still believe he'll have trouble with boxers and movers, but he's fun to watch and they should get him back on tv fast.

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

George Groves continues to make one think he is the future of the 168's. At some point he's going to have to step up the competition, but for fifteen pro fights? He is on track.

Ricky Burns is one of those moderately talented, well taught, crafty, extremely tough guys. He is without question a fine, classic boxer in the British Tradition, but that isn't his defining characteristic. It is that he's a tough guy. He loves being in the ring almost as much as Johnny Tapia. Just an excellent performance against Michael Katsidis. I wonder if Manny defeats JMM if Burns isn't a logical next fight for Marquez.

Michael Katsidis has been fun to watch. But don't you get the sense we have seen his best and that it is downhill from here?

Pier Cote is one of those electric athletes. He winds up his right hand like he is throwing a baseball. But he is still fast enough to get it home. He reminds me of the Yoriorkis Gamboa of three years ago. Supremely athletic, too confident and vulnerable as hell. But man oh man can he punch!

Lucian Bute looked HUGE to me. He also was in complete control of that fight from the minute it began. No way to know yet, but he might well be the best of the 168's. At worst he is a formidable challenge for the winner of the Ward-Froch battle. Al Bernstein kept talking about how Bute had become a stand in your face, stalk and destroy puncher, but I think that was just how he chose to fight last night. I suspect he would not fight that way against Froch for example.

Glenn Johnson finally got old. His balance stunk, he couldn't get in range, he didn't take punches like he usually does and for the first time I sensed some spiritual . Since Johnson started 32-0 he is 19-16-2. He has been a noble journeyman. Good enough to compete with top fighters, rarely good enough to beat them. he is a throwback to earlier boxing eras who had a dozen guys in each division who usually weren't ranked, but who could compete with anybody, and occasionally surprise someone. Men like Jose Basora and Tiger Jones and Jose Fernando Castro. Glenn you've been one of the backbones of the sport in and out of the ring. Thank You.

James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo. I had this completely wrong. Looking back the right hand Angulo landed was a desperation shot. Everything Perro is know for Kirkland did better. What a glorious fight. I'll bet we never see Angulo as a top guy again. A career changing defeat is my bet. As for Kirkland? I don't know how long he'll last fighting that way, but is there any 154 who you'd pick against him? Hell given how much the 160's suck let's put him in against Sergio right now.

George Groves - It is not only the brash young fighter who can get carried away by his own self publicity. Whilst Groves afforded Smith the respect due, Paul Smith dismissed Groves record, punch power and ability deriding him as overrated and obsessed with Degale. A trait that seemed to highlight his own complicity in looking past the man who had defeated the guy, who took his title.Post fight George confirmed his own sound judgement in acknowledging his novice status and eagerness to continue learning. You are correct Marble, Groves is definitely one too watch.

Ricky Burns - Very insightful post, you are right Burns clearly loves to be in the ring and his dedication has taken him far.How much further it can take him is open to debate, but i am loving the ride so far. Long may it continue.

Michael Katsidis - He has been great fun to watch and when he fought non Brits i have always cheered him on. His style of non stop pressure will inevitably take its toll and we may well be witnessing the beginning of the end for a true warrior.

Pier Cote - haven't seen him so no comment

Lucian Bute - i have learnt that even against a slowing ageing fighter he is a little too cautious. May well get found out when and if he meets Froch or Ward. Hard to tell as he is far from poor but a little boring and safe to watch.

Glenn Johnson - I wholeheartedly concur Thank You Mr Johnson you are a credit to the sport but maybe its time to hang up the gloves.


James Kirkland dominated Alfredo Angulo - I learnt that nothing is to be taken for granted in this great sport. I learnt that Mexicans really do have BIG hearts. I learnt that a referee can jump in too early or too late in any fight and choosing when to is an inexact science. I learnt that even tho i am an arthtritc disabled 40 year old i can still jump off the sofa and scream at the TV when a first round is that much fun.

GREAT post!

For an arthritic 40 year old

Originally Posted by Mars_ax

James Kirkland deserves a lot of credit for the Angulo fight, he didn't just win, he came back from an early 1st round KD to destroy the highly regarded Perro. Remember that before the fight, most of us armchair "experts" weren't giving Kirkland much of a chance, good job James.

Put me in that category. I had that fight going almost exactl;y the opposite of how it turned out.

Great thread. We should have a recap like this every week. I agree with the OP on everything, except Angulo and his future. Angulo made a mistake and punched himself out, thinking that Ishida knockout Kirkland out so easy, so can he.

Normally , a fighter would recover or take it easy in the next round , but Angulo dropped his hands and got caught with punches that a "normal" fighter wouldn't get up from. If they had a rematch , and Angulo fought a smart fight, I could be any man's fight.

Interestingly, it was Kirkland that was more intelligent in the ring and nobody expected that.

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Originally Posted by Mars_ax

James Kirkland deserves a lot of credit for the Angulo fight, he didn't just win, he came back from an early 1st round KD to destroy the highly regarded Perro. Remember that before the fight, most of us armchair "experts" weren't giving Kirkland much of a chance, good job James.

Put me in that category. I had that fight going almost exactl;y the opposite of how it turned out.

Me too, congrats to Kirkland! Both guys put on an amazing fight!