Thread: 30 for 30: Duran - Leonard

If there's another thread on this, Mods please feel free to merge.

I just caught the last half of this hour and a half ESPN documentary, and promptly programmed the DVR to fully record the next available repeat. It was a wonderfully made documentary, IMO, and it took me back to both of their memorable fights. There was plenty of footage and original commentary on both fights. It was cool hearing Howard Cosell calling the fights.

But the most unexpected pleasure was seeing both of them together again... in a boxing ring even. It may have seemed a bit corny to some folks, but I found it awesome and even a bit chilling in a good way. At the end they shared a hug, and it made me think if only we had seen Ali and Frazier do that before the great Smokin' Joe died.

ESPN sometimes gets accused of doing some tacky shit.... but I thought this special was spectacular. Hell.... even got to see a little of Christie Brinkley back in the day (and now also). I didn't know she was such a boxing fan.

Anyway, I highly recommend it to any boxing fan. Some may think it put Duran in a bad light because of the "No Mas" incident. But we all know that Duran went on to humongous and glorious things after that fight. Seeing both of these old guys (Leonard seems the better for the wear) chatting it up together was heartwarming, especially after all the bad blood they had.

Originally Posted by TitoFan

If there's another thread on this, Mods please feel free to merge.

I just caught the last half of this hour and a half ESPN documentary, and promptly programmed the DVR to fully record the next available repeat. It was a wonderfully made documentary, IMO, and it took me back to both of their memorable fights. There was plenty of footage and original commentary on both fights. It was cool hearing Howard Cosell calling the fights.

But the most unexpected pleasure was seeing both of them together again... in a boxing ring even. It may have seemed a bit corny to some folks, but I found it awesome and even a bit chilling in a good way. At the end they shared a hug, and it made me think if only we had seen Ali and Frazier do that before the great Smokin' Joe died.

ESPN sometimes gets accused of doing some tacky shit.... but I thought this special was spectacular. Hell.... even got to see a little of Christie Brinkley back in the day (and now also). I didn't know she was such a boxing fan.

Anyway, I highly recommend it to any boxing fan. Some may think it put Duran in a bad light because of the "No Mas" incident. But we all know that Duran went on to humongous and glorious things after that fight. Seeing both of these old guys (Leonard seems the better for the wear) chatting it up together was heartwarming, especially after all the bad blood they had.

I still got her first SI swimsuit issue packed in a box somewhere. I still cant believe Billy Joel was....

Lucky bastid.

Cant get ESPN where I live but I'll find this and watch it online.

I thought it was very poorly done there's just so much more to it other than the typical ESPN contrived emotion but I still loved it. As a Duran fan I've tried to buy all the excuses but no mas. It's so clear that being more of a man than Ray was essential to Roberto. He simply knew he wasn't going to win and he wasn't going to give Ray the opportunity to beat on him. I wish he would just say "I didn't have it that night, that night he was the better man" but he just won't give that ti Ray. Oddly I've always hated Ray because he seemed to have it all given to him. Over the years I've softened on that and I'm getting close to considering myself a fan.

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I thought it was very poorly done there's just so much more to it other than the typical ESPN contrived emotion but I still loved it. As a Duran fan I've tried to buy all the excuses but no mas. It's so clear that being more of a man than Ray was essential to Roberto. He simply knew he wasn't going to win and he wasn't going to give Ray the opportunity to beat on him. I wish he would just say "I didn't have it that night, that night he was the better man" but he just won't give that ti Ray. Oddly I've always hated Ray because he seemed to have it all given to him. Over the years I've softened on that and I'm getting close to considering myself a fan.

He was wrong. The fight was still within reach. He was only down by 2 points on 2 cards and 1 point on the other. With 4 rounds to go he a chance.

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I thought it was very poorly done there's just so much more to it other than the typical ESPN contrived emotion but I still loved it. As a Duran fan I've tried to buy all the excuses but no mas. It's so clear that being more of a man than Ray was essential to Roberto. He simply knew he wasn't going to win and he wasn't going to give Ray the opportunity to beat on him. I wish he would just say "I didn't have it that night, that night he was the better man" but he just won't give that ti Ray. Oddly I've always hated Ray because he seemed to have it all given to him. Over the years I've softened on that and I'm getting close to considering myself a fan.

He was wrong. The fight was still within reach. He was only down by 2 points on 2 cards and 1 point on the other. With 4 rounds to go he a chance.

Certainly on the cards it was within reach I agree. But that's not really what I'm alluding to. Not trying to steal any glory from Ray when I say this but I think Roberto knew full well he didn't have it all when he entered the ring. I think making weight hurt him. He went out there to give it a shot, when he tired and Ray made it look so easy in the 7th he knew Ray wasn't going away and he was defeated already. His eyes between rounds had no fire. He willed himself out in the 8th but wasn't going to let Leonard make a fool of him. That's why he wanted the immediate rematch. People think that was about the money but he really wanted a shot when he was at his best. You don't need much money to live like a king in Panama. Dude just didn't have it that night. It would have only gotten more onesided.

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

I thought it was very poorly done there's just so much more to it other than the typical ESPN contrived emotion but I still loved it. As a Duran fan I've tried to buy all the excuses but no mas. It's so clear that being more of a man than Ray was essential to Roberto. He simply knew he wasn't going to win and he wasn't going to give Ray the opportunity to beat on him. I wish he would just say "I didn't have it that night, that night he was the better man" but he just won't give that ti Ray. Oddly I've always hated Ray because he seemed to have it all given to him. Over the years I've softened on that and I'm getting close to considering myself a fan.

He was wrong. The fight was still within reach. He was only down by 2 points on 2 cards and 1 point on the other. With 4 rounds to go he a chance.

Certainly on the cards it was within reach I agree. But that's not really what I'm alluding to. Not trying to steal any glory from Ray when I say this but I think Roberto knew full well he didn't have it all when he entered the ring. I think making weight hurt him. He went out there to give it a shot, when he tired and Ray made it look so easy in the 7th he knew Ray wasn't going away and he was defeated already. His eyes between rounds had no fire. He willed himself out in the 8th but wasn't going to let Leonard make a fool of him. That's why he wanted the immediate rematch. People think that was about the money but he really wanted a shot when he was at his best. You don't need much money to live like a king in Panama. Dude just didn't have it that night. It would have only gotten more onesided.

Yeah it would of got more one-sided. But I don't think it wasn't that he didn't have it. I think it was more that he hadn't prepared right. Duran always felt he could out fight Leonard in his sleep. And that's what he was expecting. A fight. He trained for a fight. He didn't expect Leonard to box him. That's what threw him off. Duran had dealt with boxers before. He knew how to cut the ring off and break a fighter down. But he hadn't train for that going into the fight. Frustration kicked in. And like you said he wasn't gonna let Leonard make a fool of him. Little did he know things would of actually been better for him if he would of just stood in there for the the whole fight

I've probably watched Duran/Leonard 1 more then any other fight save Chacon/Limon 4. I'm not convinced that Duran won.

Originally Posted by IamInuit

I've probably watched Duran/Leonard 1 more then any other fight save Chacon/Limon 4. I'm not convinced that Duran won.

I'm not convinced he lost it. It was a close fight. A lot more than people remember it to be. Both landed big punches. But Duran clearly hurt Leonard a lot more than Leonard hurt him

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by IamInuit

I've probably watched Duran/Leonard 1 more then any other fight save Chacon/Limon 4. I'm not convinced that Duran won.

I'm not convinced he lost it. It was a close fight. A lot more than people remember it to be. Both landed big punches. But Duran clearly hurt Leonard a lot more than Leonard hurt him

Yup I agree. I think the case could be made for either man. Its simply not as clear cut as many assume it to be.

Originally Posted by IamInuit

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by IamInuit

I've probably watched Duran/Leonard 1 more then any other fight save Chacon/Limon 4. I'm not convinced that Duran won.

I'm not convinced he lost it. It was a close fight. A lot more than people remember it to be. Both landed big punches. But Duran clearly hurt Leonard a lot more than Leonard hurt him

Yup I agree. I think the case could be made for either man. Its simply not as clear cut as many assume it to be.

I tend to agree. In the larger sense neither fighter was a loser that night. As for the scorecards it could have gone either way. I tend to think this is one of those fights that the judges could see more than the television viewers. Ray admits how hard that fight was for him. Maybe the judges could see that as well.

But there is also the possibility that how it was fought influenced the judges. Sometimes they score it towards the boxer if it's a boxing match or towards the brawler if it's a brawl. Some times unfairly. In this fight I think Duran was rewarded the swing rounds for his ring generalship and that seems justifiable. It's strange to say but I usually score it 8-7 Leonard but say Duran won the fight.

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

Originally Posted by IamInuit

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by IamInuit

I've probably watched Duran/Leonard 1 more then any other fight save Chacon/Limon 4. I'm not convinced that Duran won.

I'm not convinced he lost it. It was a close fight. A lot more than people remember it to be. Both landed big punches. But Duran clearly hurt Leonard a lot more than Leonard hurt him

Yup I agree. I think the case could be made for either man. Its simply not as clear cut as many assume it to be.

I tend to agree. In the larger sense neither fighter was a loser that night. As for the scorecards it could have gone either way. I tend to think this is one of those fights that the judges could see more than the television viewers. Ray admits how hard that fight was for him. Maybe the judges could see that as well.

But there is also the possibility that how it was fought influenced the judges. Sometimes they score it towards the boxer if it's a boxing match or towards the brawler if it's a brawl. Some times unfairly. In this fight I think Duran was rewarded the swing rounds for his ring generalship and that seems justifiable. It's strange to say but I usually score it 8-7 Leonard but say Duran won the fight.

Perception played a big part. Duran looked liken he was the boss the whole fight. His mannerisms and the way he bullied Leonard helped him out. Even in the rounds Leonard won it always looked like Duran was in charge.

It was a close fight and Duran probably got it more of perception that Leonard was "dragged into a war" with Duran rather than Leonard wanted to show Roberto that he could fight with him punch for punch.

I believe 100% that Duran won the first fight. I can't see it SRL's way.

But that being said, I think SRL lost because he fought a dumb fight because Duran got into his head.

Duran was a great fighter and I'm a big fan of his, but to me NOTHING excuses quitting in the ring like he did. People always try to make excuses for him, but to me there's no excuse for it. It was a disgrace to boxing. To quit because SRL was clowning him? Or because Duran had a tummy ache from making weight? Come on, man...

SRL was the better fighter. He proved it in that fight. If Duran wasn't in shape for it, tough shit, that's on him. A mark of a great fighter is that he always comes to his fights 100% prepared. If Duran didn't come prepared against a fighter the caliber of SRL, than he's an idiot and that is a serious mark on his career.

It isa serious mark on his career but his career is so long he has got away with it. He beat Moore and Barclay afterwards which more than made up for the quitting.

By the time Duran fought Leonard in Montreal he had been fighting for 12 years and his record was 71-1. That is a lot of boxing for a man not yet 30 years old. It was the last time we ever saw Roberto Duran at his peak, he won a close decision, but he did win, he landed the harder punches and more often was the aggressor. He was great that night.

No Mas highlights a fighter who had achieved everything he ever needed to achieve in the ring, by New Orleans he was already half the fighter he was just 6 months earlier. Leonard knew about Duran's weight issues, he knew about his preparation problems, he knew about the partying, he also knew if he waited any longer for a rematch then those problems might just get solved. Leonard had his man the moment the 2nd fight was signed. Duran should've made Leonard sweat on a rematch for a year.

Duran's own temperament, partying, rapid weight loss and his total under- estimation of Leonard's abilities beat him that night. I'm not buying any of the Leonard in-ring wizardry that befuddled Duran in New Orleans. Leonard was very good, but he wasn't that good that he could humiliate Roberto Duran. Duran was a 12 year veteran, already a legend by 1980 and arguably the greatest Lightweight champion of all time, Duran beat himself before the first bell sounded and he has no one to blame but himself for that.

Sugar Ray Leonard won the fight and would've won a decision, the result was never in doubt before a single punch was thrown.

We never saw the greatness of Roberto Duran again. He fought on another 21 years when he should've retired after the Hearns disaster.