Thread: Floyd, Manny, Hop, Roy legacy

Originally Posted by Master

Rantcatrat has explained it better than I could. If Ricky had fought Floyd at 140lb it would have been to his advantage and he did give Floyd a hard time for 6 rounds but he would have been able to sustain that for 12. Do not buy into Floyd fighting at his walking weight he only shows you what he wants to show you. He could not make the weight required when he fought JMM. If Floyd had an advantage coming down 140lb he would take it, the reality is he weights light middle/middleweight limit and comes down to welterweight.

How? Would sweating his ass off in a sauna and starving himself give him more endurance? Or are you saying that he didn't train himself hard enough because he didn't have to fight at 140?

If the latter, why is it Floyd's problem if Ricky never put the work in at the gym for the biggest fight of his life?

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by mikeeod

I just don't see any comparison with quality of opposition. Even Ray Leonard, who had many less fights than Manny: Hagler (ATG/HOF), Hearns (undefeated HOF/ATG), Duran (ATG/HOF), Benitez (HOF/ATG). All of those guys, except (maybe) Hagler where in their primes. No comparison. Floyd is great and not every missed fight was Floyd's, but I can't give him credit for should have beens over guys who did. Sorry.

I'm not talking about giving him credit, I'm telling you not to dock him for them. Boxing is a lot more complicated than it was back in the good old days with rival promotional companies, networks, a million sanctioning bodies, ect.


Floyd wasn't always Money Mayweather. Something that people forget is that Floyd himself was one of the most avoided guys in the sport for a period because he was a virtuoso talent with no name value and presented one of the worst risk/reward ratios in boxing. People were not knocking down doors to fight Floyd like they have been for the last few years.

People dock Roy for a bunch of guys he never fought too, when in reality there is history and circumstance behind a lot of those missed fights, but people seem to like to just assume and say "ohh he ducked so and so because they never fought". Most of the time, it's more complicated.

I have to be honest, u just aren't making a rational argument, u r making an emotional one. U r saying that Floyd and Roy should be ranked higher because of how dominant they r and how great they looked. That is subjective, u r admitting that they fought inferior competition, but u r giving them credit since, in ur opinion, it wasn't their fault. What I'm saying is that while I agree with ur assessment of their abilities, I rank them lower based on the fact that they didn't make those fights and other guys did.

Ricardo Lopez, Rigo, Charley Burley, Sam Langford and many others were great fighters who, for circumstances out of their control, where not able to fight many top caliber opponents. As much asi admire their abilities and respect them, I can't rank them higher than Robinson, Armstrong, Ali...etc., because they didn't have the historical accomplishments. Floyd is great, an ATG. No doubt. This isn't a hate on Floyd session. Floyd will never be ranked higher than those guys because beating Chico and Hatton (his two biggest wins) does not compare with beating Hagler, Duran, Hearns and Benitez. It doesn't compare with beating Fullmer, Basilio, Lamotta...etc. I don't think we r ever goin to agree. U will always say Floyd is in the discussion based on ur "feeling" that way. I will say this also: it is easy to look great against not great competition. While Oscar and Tito had more losses than Floyd, they fought much tougher competition. I rank Floyd higher than both of those guys, but I so wonder what Floyd's record would be if he made the fights those guys did. As for missed fights not being his fault: 50 year old Hop is fighting an undefeated MONSTER who fights for rival HBO m promoter. Hop found a way to make the fight and will try and slay another dragon to add to his legacy. That is a great fighters mentality. Floyd fought Marcos Maidana twice and will most likely retire without fighting Manny. Despite his impressive skills and conditioning, at times I do question his mentality...

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by Master

Rantcatrat has explained it better than I could. If Ricky had fought Floyd at 140lb it would have been to his advantage and he did give Floyd a hard time for 6 rounds but he would have been able to sustain that for 12. Do not buy into Floyd fighting at his walking weight he only shows you what he wants to show you. He could not make the weight required when he fought JMM. If Floyd had an advantage coming down 140lb he would take it, the reality is he weights light middle/middleweight limit and comes down to welterweight.

How? Would sweating his ass off in a sauna and starving himself give him more endurance? Or are you saying that he didn't train himself hard enough because he didn't have to fight at 140?

If the latter, why is it Floyd's problem if Ricky never put the work in at the gym for the biggest fight of his life?

What weight was Hatton champion at?
Why didn't Floyd fight him in '05 or '06 instead of Mitchell or Judah? Instead of in late '07 when Hatton's well noted weight gains between bouts had already deteriorated his resilience and had looked very ordinary against Collazo? I still think Floyd would have won (easy) but it would have been a more significant win

Like Mikeeod said Floyd needed more fights where the result was not in doubt, when Floyd was not the overwhelming favourite

Casamayor was calling out Floyd every chance he got from '09-'02, Dorin and Spadafora fought each other while Floyd fought none title holders Sosa and Ndou, Wright had agreed to all terms before Floyd went another direction, fighting Cotto or Margarito instead of retiring was a fight the fans were calling for when he returned Pacquiao was the right fight to make Martinez was doing everything possible to try and lure Floyd into the ring and now Golovkin looms as a very possible threat at middleweight Gavilin and Armstrong were featherweights and fought middleweights, but for some reason Floyd's fans feel it is unreasonable for him to venture that high, but if he wants to wear that TBE cap then he will be held to those standards

Leonard and Hearns got the fight done when they were considered the 2 best, Chavez and Whitaker did the same, if Floyd had of really wanted a certain fight I have no doubt it would have got done

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I gotcha. You're saying a 140 version of Hatton wouldn't have beat Floyd. Fair enough. I tend to agree with you. In a p4p sense, weight being equal, I think he beats Hatton on most days. Frankly, scoreboard, he has a win over Hatton, even if it wasn't at Hatton's best weight.

On the other hand, in my opinion, Floyd's a natural welterweight. Sure, he fights at 150 on fight night, but that doesn't mean that losing 7 pounds wouldn't be difficult for him and might not zap some strength and performance out of him. Keep in mind too that Floyd agreed to a catch weight of 145 for Marquez and then came in at 147 even though it cost him money. I have to think that was because it was more comfortable to make 147 than it was 145. Clearly, it wasn't the honorable thing to do. If it was so easy to make weight, and Floyd isn't shy about using his A-side status to his advantage, why not force big strong welterweights to fight at 140 or below 147? He forced Canelo to fight at 152. In other words, if he wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't because he's a welterweight.

He doesn't because he doesn't cut weight. It doesn't mean he's a natural WW in the modern sense. I guarantee you just about everybody Ricky Hatton fought at 140 came into the ring heavier than Floyd did for their fight at WW.

You guys keep skirting the question and going back to "well Ricky's best weight was 140". For you and Master to have the opinion you guys do you have to either think that A) Ricky would have performed better if forced to cut down to 140lbs (which I think is ridiculous: having to drain yourself sitting in a sauna and starving yourself before the weigh ins has never improved anybody's performance in the history of sports) or b) that Mayweather would have been drained or somehow diminished by having to cut down to 140 (which I doubt because 10lbs is a relatively small amount to have to cut, but if Floyd isn't used to cutting maybe it would have hurt him, it's a possibility, who knows).

If your position is A, you need to update your knowledge of weight cutting, maybe even try sweating out 15-20lbs yourself. If your position is B, why would you want Floyd to be diminished? Isn't the point of the undefeated clash to have both guys at their best? All weighing in at 147 did was cause Floyd not to have to cut weight and Ricky to have to cut less than usual.

It's funny that people make such a big deal about Ricky at WW, too. He had one WW fight before Floyd, against the notoriously crafty and awkward Collazo. Isn't it more likely that Ricky's trouble at WW came because he was fighting a very awkward and tricky fighter, moreso than actually physically weighing in at 147?

I think you might have missed my second post. I highlighted it above. Floyd would have beat Ricky Hatton anyway, 140 or not. I also think Ricky Hatton was better at 140. It might have been a more even fight because Floyd would have had to lose another 7 pounds, which might have been difficult for him. Floyd would have had to incorporate losing the 7 pounds into his training schedule and Hatton doing something he was was used to doing. So, we could have seen a closer match-up.

I still think Floyd is for sure a true welterweight. If Floyd wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't fight at 140 because he performs better at 147. 7 pounds is a ton of weight to lose in boxing. For a fighter who weighs 150 pounds losing ten pounds is losing 7% of your total body weight. When was the last time Floyd fought below 147? Why did Floyd not fight at 145 when he fought Marquez and was contracted to do so? You didn't answer it so I'll hazard a guess - because it was easier not to. If it was easier not to lose 2 pounds for Marquez, then it was much easier not to lose 7 to face Hatton at his prime weight.

In my opinion, this is a dumb argument because I think Floyd would still have won. He was a more well-rounded fighter.

Floyd may well have won at 140lb but it would have been much closer. Add to the fact that if it was under the conditions Kostya had to deal with in terms of the hostile conditions and Dave Paris then we may have got a Ricky victory.

Originally Posted by mikeeod

I have to be honest, u just aren't making a rational argument, u r making an emotional one. U r saying that Floyd and Roy should be ranked higher because of how dominant they r and how great they looked. That is subjective, u r admitting that they fought inferior competition, but u r giving them credit since, in ur opinion, it wasn't their fault. What I'm saying is that while I agree with ur assessment of their abilities, I rank them lower based on the fact that they didn't make those fights and other guys did.

I never admitted they fought inferior competition, I'm admitting there are guys that would have been interesting to see them in the ring with that they never fought.

I've gotten into the whole "inferior opposition" arguments on here regarding Floyd and Roy way too many times. People are going to believe what they want to believe. It makes no difference to me if people want to say Floyd and Roy stink and would get murdered by REAL fighters of the past.

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

What weight was Hatton champion at?
Why didn't Floyd fight him in '05 or '06 instead of Mitchell or Judah? Instead of in late '07 when Hatton's well noted weight gains between bouts had already deteriorated his resilience and had looked very ordinary against Collazo? I still think Floyd would have won (easy) but it would have been a more significant win

Floyd cherry picked a 2007 Hatton over a 2006 Hatton. LOL another great excuse to add to the mental scrap book.

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I think you might have missed my second post. I highlighted it above. Floyd would have beat Ricky Hatton anyway, 140 or not. I also think Ricky Hatton was better at 140. It might have been a more even fight because Floyd would have had to lose another 7 pounds, which might have been difficult for him. Floyd would have had to incorporate losing the 7 pounds into his training schedule and Hatton doing something he was was used to doing. So, we could have seen a closer match-up.

I still think Floyd is for sure a true welterweight. If Floyd wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't fight at 140 because he performs better at 147. 7 pounds is a ton of weight to lose in boxing. For a fighter who weighs 150 pounds losing ten pounds is losing 7% of your total body weight. When was the last time Floyd fought below 147? Why did Floyd not fight at 145 when he fought Marquez and was contracted to do so? You didn't answer it so I'll hazard a guess - because it was easier not to. If it was easier not to lose 2 pounds for Marquez, then it was much easier not to lose 7 to face Hatton at his prime weight.

In my opinion, this is a dumb argument because I think Floyd would still have won. He was a more well-rounded fighter.

I'm pretty sure I answered the question: Floyd doesn't like cutting weight. It's not up to me, you or Floyd to decide what a natural WW is. Go and look at the data of what WW's weigh in on the day of the fight and you find me another WW who comes in under 150lb on fight day.

Pick any weight class you want, guys will generally come in 10, 15, even 20+ lbs what they weighed in at. Maidana weighed in at 147 the first PBF fight and came in at damn near 170. Weight cutting is a big part of fight sports. If Floyd was cutting weight like everyone else, he'd be fighting at 140. He doesn't cut weight so he fights at 147. If most other 147lbers didn't cut weight, they'd be fighting at 160 or 168. Floyd is a tiny, tiny WW compared to his peers. I'm not giving you my opinion, I"m just stating facts.

I don't mind people saying they think Ricky would have won 3 years earlier, or if they had a ref that let him do more clinch work, whatever. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

I just wanted someone to give me a satisfactory answer as to why 147 was a significant advantage for Floyd or a significant disadvantage for Hatton. It's been 7 years and I still never got a good answer, just pseudo-science and weight class voodoo.

The only thing I was ever told that kinda made sense was that if the fight was at 147, Ricky knew he wouldn't have to bust his ass so hard to make the limit and wouldn't train as hard. If that's the case, like I said before, why is it Floyd's problem if Hatton couldn't be bothered to train hard for the biggest fight of his life?

Did Hatton or his camp even press for the fight to be at 140? I agree it would have been a better fight there, but only if it had happened a couple of years earlier. Hatton didn't look himself at all against Juan Lazcano going back down after the Floyd fight.. Could have been mostly shaking off the mental aspect of that loss, or a bad training camp as a result of that, or perhaps he actually had a lot of trouble making 140 himself at that point? We don't know, but the guy had been fighting at 140 I believe forever and didn't exactly take it easy on himself out of the ring, there's no reason to think he was that much more effective there over the last few years of his career. I think he was just generally a bit shopworn by then at either weight. He was awesome against guys like Vince Phillips and Ben Tackie, even in the Tszyu fight he wasn't as good as that imo.

Originally Posted by p4pking

Did Hatton or his camp even press for the fight to be at 140? I agree it would have been a better fight there, but only if it had happened a couple of years earlier. Hatton didn't look himself at all against Juan Lazcano going back down after the Floyd fight.. Could have been mostly shaking off the mental aspect of that loss, or a bad training camp as a result of that, or perhaps he actually had a lot of trouble making 140 himself at that point? We don't know, but the guy had been fighting at 140 I believe forever and didn't exactly take it easy on himself out of the ring, there's no reason to think he was that much more effective there over the last few years of his career. I think he was just generally a bit shopworn by then at either weight. He was awesome against guys like Vince Phillips and Ben Tackie, even in the Tszyu fight he wasn't as good as that imo.

No the Kostya fight was his pinacle performance.

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

What weight was Hatton champion at?
Why didn't Floyd fight him in '05 or '06 instead of Mitchell or Judah? Instead of in late '07 when Hatton's well noted weight gains between bouts had already deteriorated his resilience and had looked very ordinary against Collazo? I still think Floyd would have won (easy) but it would have been a more significant win

Floyd cherry picked a 2007 Hatton over a 2006 Hatton. LOL another great excuse to add to the mental scrap book.

Who said cherry picked? Nice way to avoid the question I'm sure most would agree that the Hatton of '05 would have been a sterner test than the version Floyd faced in December '07

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

What weight was Hatton champion at?
Why didn't Floyd fight him in '05 or '06 instead of Mitchell or Judah? Instead of in late '07 when Hatton's well noted weight gains between bouts had already deteriorated his resilience and had looked very ordinary against Collazo? I still think Floyd would have won (easy) but it would have been a more significant win

Floyd cherry picked a 2007 Hatton over a 2006 Hatton. LOL another great excuse to add to the mental scrap book.

Who said cherry picked? Nice way to avoid the question I'm sure most would agree that the Hatton of '05 would have been a sterner test than the version Floyd faced in December '07

The floyd that fought Gatti would have defeated Chuck Norrris and Hatton in the same phone booth. Fact.

Originally Posted by p4pking

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

What weight was Hatton champion at?
Why didn't Floyd fight him in '05 or '06 instead of Mitchell or Judah? Instead of in late '07 when Hatton's well noted weight gains between bouts had already deteriorated his resilience and had looked very ordinary against Collazo? I still think Floyd would have won (easy) but it would have been a more significant win

Floyd cherry picked a 2007 Hatton over a 2006 Hatton. LOL another great excuse to add to the mental scrap book.

Who said cherry picked? Nice way to avoid the question I'm sure most would agree that the Hatton of '05 would have been a sterner test than the version Floyd faced in December '07

The floyd that fought Gatti would have defeated Chuck Norrris and Hatton in the same phone booth. Fact.

Agreed and I never said he wouldn't have but I would have given more credit to Floyd had he faced Hatton then instead of Gatti

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

Originally Posted by p4pking

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

What weight was Hatton champion at?
Why didn't Floyd fight him in '05 or '06 instead of Mitchell or Judah? Instead of in late '07 when Hatton's well noted weight gains between bouts had already deteriorated his resilience and had looked very ordinary against Collazo? I still think Floyd would have won (easy) but it would have been a more significant win

Floyd cherry picked a 2007 Hatton over a 2006 Hatton. LOL another great excuse to add to the mental scrap book.

Who said cherry picked? Nice way to avoid the question I'm sure most would agree that the Hatton of '05 would have been a sterner test than the version Floyd faced in December '07

The floyd that fought Gatti would have defeated Chuck Norrris and Hatton in the same phone booth. Fact.

Agreed and I never said he wouldn't have but I would have given more credit to Floyd had he faced Hatton then instead of Gatti

Why did Floyd (and Oscar) avoid Kostya?

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I think you might have missed my second post. I highlighted it above. Floyd would have beat Ricky Hatton anyway, 140 or not. I also think Ricky Hatton was better at 140. It might have been a more even fight because Floyd would have had to lose another 7 pounds, which might have been difficult for him. Floyd would have had to incorporate losing the 7 pounds into his training schedule and Hatton doing something he was was used to doing. So, we could have seen a closer match-up.

I still think Floyd is for sure a true welterweight. If Floyd wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't fight at 140 because he performs better at 147. 7 pounds is a ton of weight to lose in boxing. For a fighter who weighs 150 pounds losing ten pounds is losing 7% of your total body weight. When was the last time Floyd fought below 147? Why did Floyd not fight at 145 when he fought Marquez and was contracted to do so? You didn't answer it so I'll hazard a guess - because it was easier not to. If it was easier not to lose 2 pounds for Marquez, then it was much easier not to lose 7 to face Hatton at his prime weight.

In my opinion, this is a dumb argument because I think Floyd would still have won. He was a more well-rounded fighter.

I'm pretty sure I answered the question: Floyd doesn't like cutting weight.

If Floyd was cutting weight like everyone else, he'd be fighting at 140. He doesn't cut weight so he fights at 147.

He isn't cutting weight below 147 because it is hard for him to do it. It's not a "like" or "dislike" issue. And, if he doesn't like to cut weight it's because it is difficult for him to do.

With that said, here's what we agree on:

• It is difficult for Floyd to fight below 147. Evidence: He didn't do it against Marquez even though he was contractually required to.
  
• Hatton had more success at 140 than 147. Evidence: he didn't have a truly good win at 147. He had many at 140.

Therefore if they had faced each other at 140:

• Floyd would be fighting at a weight where he is less comfortable.
  
• Hatton would be fighting at weight he proved to perform best.

Accordingly, the fight very well might have been closer.