Thread: Stevenson and Savon as professionals

These Cuban fighters won 3 Olympic Gold Medals each and we've yet to see the like of fighters that talented in the heavyweight division come from Cuba. We've seen Odlanier Solis who had promise but turned into a fat tub of goo, we've seen Luis Ortiz who is undefeated right now but he doesn't have the flash that Stevenson and Savon had

Teófilo Stevenson I've seen him listed as 6'5 I've seen 6'3 and his weight as a professional would probably be around 210-218 lbs. He was born in 1952 (supposedly, the Cubans are notorious for saying "hey I'm 14" and in reality they are 35) which would make him 10 years younger than Muhammad Ali, 8 years younger than Joe Frazier, 3 years younger than George Foreman and Larry Holmes. How would Stevenson have coped in the 1970's as a 20 year old or later in the 1980's where he could have fought the likes of Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson?

Felix Savon was 6'5 his weight as a professional is really difficult to calculate seeing how tall he was and how long his arms were you don't know if he would fill out or perhaps he had that rail thin Tommy Hearns/Paul Williams physique. He could have been anywhere from 215 to 250 depending on his frame and what weight he felt comfortable at. He was born in 1967 (supposedly) making him 1 year younger than Mike Tyson, 5 years younger than Evander Holyfield, 2 years younger than Lennox Lewis, 6 years younger than Frank Bruno and the same age as Riddick Bowe.


These guys seemed absolutely unbeatable as amateurs, yet they DID suffer defeats. Stevenson had a fierce rival in Igor Vysotsky who beat Stevenson twice once by points and once by stoppage. Felix Savon was a dominating force in the amateurs and the only fights I can find him losing are 1 vs Ruslan Chagaev which was overruled as Chagaev had boxed as a pro before and 1 vs Michael Bennett when the Cuban boxing team walked out because they felt they were being reffed/judged unfairly.


I am very interested to read what you guys think about these two and the individual matchups they would have had had they gone professional.

So how would Stevenson do against...
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Norton
Lyle
Holmes
Michael Spinks
Tyson

How would Savon have done against...
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Bowe
Bruno
Holmes
Foreman
Michael Spinks

Take your time, there are no wrong answers and obviously I'm hoping Britkid gives detailed and nuanced answers to this.

Stevenson versus
Ali - Ali wins.......just! Because Ali would've been nearing the end.
Frazier - Stevenson was just too skilful and big and strong.
Foreman - Stevenson in a battle of the big guys , I reckon Stevenson was technically good enough to avoid Foreman's power and at the same time assert his own gradually breaking down Foreman.
Norton - Stevenson , again probably just a little too classy.
Lyle - Stevenson . I know less of Lyle than the rest, but imp pretty certain Stevenson would be too good.
Holmes - Holmes pts. I think Holmes would be able to score heavily with his jab keeping Stevenson at bay. Good technical fight though.
Michael Spinks - Stevenson KO . Spinks was always a bit small and lacking in power IMO.
Tyson - Tyson KO. Tyson had enough speed and underrated movement and technical ability to get to Stevenson and most other heavies for that matter.

How would Savon have done against...
Tyson - Tyson KO . Too powerful
Holyfield - Holyfield . Holyfield was probably brave enough and tough enough to scrape through.
Lewis - Lewis late stoppage . I'm not certain about this one , could go either way.
Bowe - Savon pts. Savon would probably be too classy and too busy.
Bruno - Savon late KO. Systemically breaks Down our Frank unfortunately and despite Bruno's bravery, he ends up with nothing left in the tank.
Holmes - Holmes . Same as v Stevenson
Foreman - Foreman . Foreman may just have too much power.
Michael Spinks - Savon . Again, difficult to see exactly how Spinks could beat him.

Of course both of them would need 15-20 pro fights to get used to pro boxing , 15 rounds instead of 3. And I'm going on prime (the pros) v prime that I think it would've been (Cubans)
Obviously being first to have a go, I'm there to be shot at.

I am off for most of tomorrow so shall give this my 2p then, but I will say talking about defeats, in the excellent 'In the Red Corner' (John Duncan), he visits Cuba to try and negotiate a Tyson/Savon fight in the late 90s. Whilst there Savon loses in an internal tournament (Delis) that was filmed live for Cuban TV, so maybe footage is floating about on the Internet?!

Teofilo Stevenson


Looking at Stevenson, he has that quintessential amateur energy mixed with that spritely agile and nimble footwork. The timing on his punches and his head movement and defense are very reminiscent of Ali so I see why the public was clamoring for this fight. There were times Stevenson circled like Ali, there were times he bounced on the balls of his feet like Pacquiao, and there were times he stalked opponents down a la Joe Louis and he looked natural at all 3. From his highlights you notice how fundamentally sound Stevenson was his punches straight, quick, and snapped back high for defense. His jab was quick, never fired just on it's own, always had something following it. The right hand was the money punch for Stevenson, he did everything with that right hand, he'd catch an opponent going back, he would catch an opponent coming in, he'd slip and counter with it, he had a very quick stunningly powerful right cross. He had a decent left hook but you don't see that too often from him, his next best punch was kind of a 'Bolo' punch like his compatriot Kid Gavilan. I will say that Stevenson was a very upright fighter which of course differs greatly from Ali's unorthodox style, Young Foreman's menacing stalking, Joe Frazier's nonstop forward movement. Stevenson's greatest amateur foe was Igor Vysotsky who was a stocky stout fireplug of a Soviet (also one who people wanted Tyson to fight very badly) Vysotsky was very much the Joe Frazier to Stevenson's Ali.

So for the bouts...
Ali - I think at this point Ali was not the young buck anymore, but I think he was smart enough to school an inexperienced professional which Stevenson would have been at that point. I think Stevenson could stagger Ali, hurt Ali, and yeah he could have caused Ali big time trouble, but I think the bright lights always had Ali shining brighter than anyone else and when the situation demanded Ali always stepped up his game so Ali starts quickly, sets the tone and pace of the fight and then Stevenson has 1 or 2 moments of brilliance before really getting a good winning round in and then just when you thought the tide would completely turn, Ali would hit him, hurt him, and flurry until Stevenson goes down and does not get back up. Ali by late stoppage

Frazier - Joe Frazier is known for being the thorn in Ali's side the way Igor Vysotsky was the thorn in Stevenson's side. This fight is one that would have been absolutely explosive! You've got an upright flashy yet smooth boxer/puncher vs a blue collar blood and guts tank looking to land and do damage. In the years 1972-1974 Joe Frazier was older slower but still very dangerous. I think Stevenson would have a good thing going early and if he was able to hurt Joe then he could win by an early KO/TKO, but if Stevenson got cocky and didn't go for the kill early on he would be in deep shit and likely get stopped late himself. Closer to '72 Frazier by KO mid to late or you may even have a close decision, closer to '74 Stevenson early stoppage.

Foreman - Big George Foreman was as dangerous as they come, he went through the heavyweight division like a hot knife through butter. I see this matchup and I'm thinking to myself "Who but Ali could have figured out how to stop Foreman?" in '72 Stevenson would have been 20 years old....faaaaaaar too green to tackle Foreman (Foreman KO early) but the later you go you see Foreman's form slip and Stevenson really come into his own and it's a more even/harder to pick fight one which Stevenson might be able to last the distance with George or win a decision.

Norton - Ken Norton was a physically imposing specimen and likewise Teofilo had an Adonis style physique. I think Stevenson's amateur pedigree and his sharpe right cross would be very difficult for Norton to overcome. Stevenson by early KO or decision (very different results but I think if Teo was going to KO Ken i would happen early on rather than mid to late, I also think if Stevenson was racking up points he'd steer clear of screwing that up by avoiding the obvious engaging more and gunning for a KO)

Lyle - Ron Lyle was rugged and tough as they come, but the amateur pedigree again would pay off for Stevenson. I see the fight going much like the Lyle-Ali fight only Stevenson probably hurts Lyle faster and ends the fight in 8-10 similar to Ali).

Holmes - Larry Holmes never got his chance to fight Stevenson in the Olympics as one Duane Bobick beat him out for the heavyweight spot on the US Olympic roster (stopped him actually). I think early on in the hypothetical professional careers of these fighters Stevenson would no doubt be the favorite and more than likely hurt and stop The Easton Assassin. As their careers went on, who knows, I think THIS is the big rivalry that we missed out on in post Ali boxing.

Michael Spinks - Spinks had a great amateur pedigree and would survive and maybe trouble Teo early on but Teo was the (as Jim Lampley would say) "The bigger man with the bigger punch" and that would catch up with Spinks ending the fight in the middle rounds with a cracking right cross followed with a sharp bolo punch sending Spinks to the canvas to avoid the rest of the finishing flurry

Tyson - Now Mike Tyson was 14 years younger than Teofilo Stevenson and at Mike's peak (let's say 1988 when he beat Michael Spinks) Teo would have been (again ALLEGEDLY) 36 years old and Mike Tyson would have been a mere child of 22. Stevenson ALMOST had 5 Gold Medals but the Cuba (following the lead of the USSR) boycotted both the 1984 and 1988 Olympics, but he did beat eventual Gold Medalist Tyrell Biggs in February of 1984 just for good measure. If Igor Vysotsky gave Teofilo Stevenson fits in the amateurs then Mike Tyson would obliterate Stevenson, the heat coming off the power punches Tyson would be slinging at Teo would just melt the man down into a puddle on the canvas....Mike Tyson KO very early, have the popcorn ready before the opening bell because the fight won't last long.


I will do a similar post for Savon later on.

Felix Savon


When you see Felix Savon the first thing you notice is that although he is very lanky (6'5 and a reach of 82") he is also very muscular. He seems to be the Stretch Armstrong version of Frank Bruno. His style is a blended one, he has the upright stance of an amateur but the stalking nature and punch variety of a professional. Savon reminds me a lot of Lennox Lewis in some ways, he had a very sharp 1-2. It was direct and if that jab landed then watch out the right was coming directly behind it and with great power. Savon's ability to find and/or create openings from nothing was really something to behold. A fighter would attempt to ready himself to block the 1-2, and all of a sudden Savon slams a right hook against his head (a gift no doubt courtesy of that 82" reach) or a fighter is worried about the long distance jab to the gut...maybe not a painful punch, but a scoring one and in the amateurs that matters so when Savon had the fighter looking for the jab low he'd follow up with a devastating right cross flush on the jaw. Like other lanky fighters with big power in their right hands (The Klitschko's) Felix Savon also utilized his jab as a method of swiping an opponent's guard down leaving him open for a massive right cross. Savon was arguably one of the most impressive and dangerous amateur heavyweights of all time and you see that cockiness, that bravado, in the ring and you wonder if it would translate into the professional ring because how many polished amateurs do we see get the shine taken off of them by being cocky by being brash and unworried about their opponents? Savon was NOT undefeated in the amateurs (I mean really, there's nobody who is) he was stopped a few times, there is seemingly no video of these stoppages and very little description of the fights and I've seen Savon get really puffed up in the eyes during some fights so that should be considered.

Mike Tyson - this is THE fight we missed out on. The contrast in style was there, the Mike Tyson fans will ALWAYS believe that the Tyson style was perfectly built to counter a style like Savon's...now I don't buy that at all, but Mike Tyson DID do a number on some tall lanky boxers albeit he had the number done to him by tall lanky boxers before too. I think both of these guys had that "unbeatable" aura around them and they would both carry that to the ring in this match. Part of me sees Tyson just obliterating Savon in 1 round while part of me says Savon lasts a while before getting caught and finished. I would say that 80-20 Tyson takes Savon out (mid to late 80's) and 60-40 Savon takes Tyson out in the 1990's...this wouldn't hit the scorecards.


Holyfield - Now it is ALWAYS difficult to pick against Evander. Felix Savon had all the tools to keep Evander away and all the athletic ability in the world to run and circle and dive out of the way of Evander's attacks, but Holyfield always kept coming forward...hit him with 1 punch, hit him with 5 punches, he's not stopping. Savon had BIG time power, he knocked out the granite chinned David Tua int he amateurs....but Evander is one of those "unknockoutable" guys sure Bowe stopped him because Evander had some heart condition and hepatitis or something and James Toney stopped him because he tore his rotator cuff, but who put Evander down on the canvas for the 10 count? .....yeah, nobody. This would certainly go the distance if Savon was to win. I think this fight is more intriguing than Tyson-Savon. I think Either Holyfield get Savon tired and stops him in the 8-10 range or Savon dances his way to a UD.

Lewis - This match would have been EPIC high amateur pedigrees on both sides, big power, upright fighters, massive heavyweights. Lennox couldn't afford a slow start like he had vs Bruno or Briggs, if THAT Lennox showed up then it's Savon by KO fairly early. I do not think that Savon would have been able to handle such a heavy fighter in Lewis (who was typically in the 240's if not 250) at his amateur weight, but if Savon bulked up it would have been interesting to see how that affected his style and approach to fights. I think Savon was a smart enough and skilled enough fighter to avoid the Michael Grant style blow out, but I am of the belief that Lennox Lewis would land hard and Savon wouldn't take it well.

Bowe - As skilled as Riddick Bowe was, as tough as he was, as big as he was, I don't think he ever had the dedication to the sport or the ring generalship that Felix Savon had. Felix Savon KO mid rounds.

Bruno - When Franky got hurt he stayed hurt and Felix would bring the pain to him, Savon KO2.



Ah man, it's Friday, I'll get to the rest later.

Those are good fighters did not realise how good they were.

Ali v Stevenson would have been a huge fight and he could of pulled off an upset as Spinks did.

Unsure about Savon, he could have ended up like Gonzales and Solis and become spoilt with the attractions of the west.

There was an absolute ton of money offered to the Cuban government to let Stevenson fight Ali in Vegas and I'm sure Stevenson knew he could defect and get the fight. Big, fast, brilliant balance, highly skilled and a massive right hand. He would have been in some amazing fights if he'd been American.

Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

There was an absolute ton of money offered to the Cuban government to let Stevenson fight Ali in Vegas and I'm sure Stevenson knew he could defect and get the fight. Big, fast, brilliant balance, highly skilled and a massive right hand. He would have been in some amazing fights if he'd been American.

If he was American he would never had had the same desire.

Originally Posted by Master

If he was American he would never had had the same desire.

Because? I mean that's an awfully bold statement to leave it there "he never would have had the same desire." full stop....care to expound on that Master?

On the face of it, it's rather silly because it isn't as if the United States has failed to produce great boxers.

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Originally Posted by Master

If he was American he would never had had the same desire.

Because? I mean that's an awfully bold statement to leave it there "he never would have had the same desire." full stop....care to expound on that Master?

On the face of it, it's rather silly because it isn't as if the United States has failed to produce great boxers.

He was Cuban and fought for the nation and ideology. He was the product of the system and would never have defected even for one fight.

Originally Posted by Master

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Originally Posted by Master

If he was American he would never had had the same desire.

Because? I mean that's an awfully bold statement to leave it there "he never would have had the same desire." full stop....care to expound on that Master?

On the face of it, it's rather silly because it isn't as if the United States has failed to produce great boxers.

He was Cuban and fought for the nation and ideology. He was the product of the system and would never have defected even for one fight.

So he was an indoctrinated robot incapable of original thought....yeah I reckon America would have ruined THAT for him

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Originally Posted by Master

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Originally Posted by Master

If he was American he would never had had the same desire.

Because? I mean that's an awfully bold statement to leave it there "he never would have had the same desire." full stop....care to expound on that Master?

On the face of it, it's rather silly because it isn't as if the United States has failed to produce great boxers.

He was Cuban and fought for the nation and ideology. He was the product of the system and would never have defected even for one fight.

So he was an indoctrinated robot incapable of original thought....yeah I reckon America would have ruined THAT for him

US women, freedom, food and money has ruined many talented Cubans.

Originally Posted by Master

US women, freedom, food and money has ruined many talented Cubans.

Odlainer Solis might weigh the same amount as "many Cubans" but you can't count him as more than just 1.