Thread: Where do you rank Vasyl Lomachenko P4P?

Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Most people are the same when it comes to ranking fighters. They look at the last few fights and see this unstoppable fighter that can't be beaten and forget about their struggles.

I remember when pac was having his impressive run, there were people asking if he were the best fighter ever. It was ridiculous, but at the time, he was looking really good. Now that everything has settled down, most people have understood that he is an ATG, but nowhere near the best ever.

This is the case with Loma and rigo. I remember watching rigo struggle earlier in his career and seeing him get hurt/knocked down. He looked good but not great. Then he beats donaire and a few other guys and people see him as this guy who literally shuts out every guy he has ever fought. That's just not true. He hasn't beaten enough good competition for me to say that he is the best boxer. I don't have enough evidence.

Loma is the same. He struggled with salido, and even struggled at times against Russell. I scored that fight 8-4 for Loma. Loma couldn't just make him quit like he did with Walters. It was still an impressive win, but he lost rounds still and showed vulnerabilities.

But as I said before, when someone has a few really impressive fights in a row, we tend to forget their struggles previously and act as if they shut out all of their opponents.

Therefore, kovalev and ward are the best on my list because they have both proven to be dominant for a long time and against a lot more opponents.

Wait, the little guys get marked down for struggling and marked down for losing rounds but Ward and Kovalev don't get marked down for struggling/losing rounds and for Wards inability to box with Kovalev and Kovalevs inability to infight? Kovalev was literally holding Wards head down and lifting one leg to block body shots. Not just once, I can show multiple pictures. That is crap, and completely wildly illegal, infighting. But no mark down for that clear missing skillset? Why are there different criteria?

My post may sound very argumentative, I'm not so good at expressing myself online. Often my tone is not exactly as it comes off in text.(I joke often and I'm sure people read it as very harsh) I'm really just asking because we've seen Ward struggle and lose riunds, we've seen Kovalev struggle and lose rounds.

Aside from the ward/kovalev fight, ward rarely ever lost rounds. He basically shut people out and if did lose a round, it was an early round where not much was happening. Kovalev rarely loses rounds either. The chilemba match was I think an anomaly but he basically destroys all of his opponents. Even an old Hopkins was a good fighter and kovalev beat him every single round. Because both ward and kovalev are so good, they made a close fight.

For example, if rigo and Loma fought each other to a draw, I can't say that they are both docked points in my mind because they lost rounds to an exceptional fight. If anything, it shows how good they both are.

Think of Floyd vs pac. Pac losing most rounds to Floyd doesn't show how bad pac is but how good Floyd is. So as in ward and kovalev, I think that fight showed how good they both were and not how bad either one is.

I think I answered your question.

Anyways, I see what you are saying with a pure who you think is better, but if I thought that Loma was the best p4p right now, I would say he is most likely a sure top 5 ever by the end of his career and I'm not willing to accept that at the moment.

I have to disagree with you, both Ward and Kovalev lost rounds and struggled at times against Miranda and Bika respectively against Chilemba and Pascal in their first fight. Both Ward and Kovalev got knocked down ( at least Rigo got KD by a powerfull P4P fighter) but all this doesn't really matters because struggling/losing rounds/getting KD is not a measurement stick for greatness; even Floyd struggled, lost rounds and got hurt a few times. The only things that matters IMO to establish the current p4p rankings are the skills proved in the latest few years and of course against whom.
The only significant fighter Ward has fought in the last 5 years was Kovalev and he got a very controversial decision , same argument works for Kovalev , on the the other side Loma and Rigo destroyed p4p fighters.

Originally Posted by iwng100

The only significant fighter Ward has fought in the last 5 years was Kovalev and he got a very controversial decision , same argument works for Kovalev

This is so NOT true.
No way you can compare Ward's resume the past 5 years to Kovalev's.
Night and day.

I don't know about night and day.. Kovalevs been a hell of a lot more active obviously, but if you take an ancient Hopkins out of the mix he hadn't fought anyone all that special until Ward either. Sullivan Barrera may prove himself to be just as good as anyone else Kovalev beat, Rogriguez was decent, etc.

I think Kovalev beat Ward don't get me wrong, but this rematch needs to happen and hopefully it's a more pleasing outcome this time all round.

Originally Posted by TitoFan

Originally Posted by iwng100

The only significant fighter Ward has fought in the last 5 years was Kovalev and he got a very controversial decision , same argument works for Kovalev

This is so NOT true.
No way you can compare Ward's resume the past 5 years to Kovalev's.
Night and day.

You are absolutely right, in the last 5 years Kovalev was much more active and he beat better fighters, but Ward was the only one in the top 10 p4p list, my bad, "significant fighter" wasn't a good choice , I should have wrote p4p rated fighter instead.

Originally Posted by iwng100

Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Most people are the same when it comes to ranking fighters. They look at the last few fights and see this unstoppable fighter that can't be beaten and forget about their struggles.

I remember when pac was having his impressive run, there were people asking if he were the best fighter ever. It was ridiculous, but at the time, he was looking really good. Now that everything has settled down, most people have understood that he is an ATG, but nowhere near the best ever.

This is the case with Loma and rigo. I remember watching rigo struggle earlier in his career and seeing him get hurt/knocked down. He looked good but not great. Then he beats donaire and a few other guys and people see him as this guy who literally shuts out every guy he has ever fought. That's just not true. He hasn't beaten enough good competition for me to say that he is the best boxer. I don't have enough evidence.

Loma is the same. He struggled with salido, and even struggled at times against Russell. I scored that fight 8-4 for Loma. Loma couldn't just make him quit like he did with Walters. It was still an impressive win, but he lost rounds still and showed vulnerabilities.

But as I said before, when someone has a few really impressive fights in a row, we tend to forget their struggles previously and act as if they shut out all of their opponents.

Therefore, kovalev and ward are the best on my list because they have both proven to be dominant for a long time and against a lot more opponents.

Wait, the little guys get marked down for struggling and marked down for losing rounds but Ward and Kovalev don't get marked down for struggling/losing rounds and for Wards inability to box with Kovalev and Kovalevs inability to infight? Kovalev was literally holding Wards head down and lifting one leg to block body shots. Not just once, I can show multiple pictures. That is crap, and completely wildly illegal, infighting. But no mark down for that clear missing skillset? Why are there different criteria?

My post may sound very argumentative, I'm not so good at expressing myself online. Often my tone is not exactly as it comes off in text.(I joke often and I'm sure people read it as very harsh) I'm really just asking because we've seen Ward struggle and lose riunds, we've seen Kovalev struggle and lose rounds.

Aside from the ward/kovalev fight, ward rarely ever lost rounds. He basically shut people out and if did lose a round, it was an early round where not much was happening. Kovalev rarely loses rounds either. The chilemba match was I think an anomaly but he basically destroys all of his opponents. Even an old Hopkins was a good fighter and kovalev beat him every single round. Because both ward and kovalev are so good, they made a close fight.

For example, if rigo and Loma fought each other to a draw, I can't say that they are both docked points in my mind because they lost rounds to an exceptional fight. If anything, it shows how good they both are.

Think of Floyd vs pac. Pac losing most rounds to Floyd doesn't show how bad pac is but how good Floyd is. So as in ward and kovalev, I think that fight showed how good they both were and not how bad either one is.

I think I answered your question.

Anyways, I see what you are saying with a pure who you think is better, but if I thought that Loma was the best p4p right now, I would say he is most likely a sure top 5 ever by the end of his career and I'm not willing to accept that at the moment.

I have to disagree with you, both Ward and Kovalev lost rounds and struggled at times against Miranda and Bika respectively against Chilemba and Pascal in their first fight. Both Ward and Kovalev got knocked down ( at least Rigo got KD by a powerfull P4P fighter) but all this doesn't really matters because struggling/losing rounds/getting KD is not a measurement stick for greatness; even Floyd struggled, lost rounds and got hurt a few times. The only things that matters IMO to establish the current p4p rankings are the skills proved in the latest few years and of course against whom.
The only significant fighter Ward has fought in the last 5 years was Kovalev and he got a very controversial decision , same argument works for Kovalev , on the the other side Loma and Rigo destroyed p4p fighters.

Rigo beat donaire who was a p4p fighter but Loma never beat any. He has beaten some good fighters. Anyways, everyone struggles, but I have to go by skill against all types of fighters. The more fights you have, the more you prove you can beat all types of fighters.

I'm not saying Loma won't get there, but he needs a few more wins to prove to me that he really is that good.

I'll prob get shit on but here's my top 5 p4P....

1. ROMAN GONZALEZ
WBC JR. BANTAMWEIGHT
COUNTRY: NICARAGUA
46-0-0 (38 KOS)

2. GENNADY GOLOVKIN
IBF, WBA, WBC MIDDLEWEIGHT
COUNTRY: KAZAKHSTAN
36-0-0 (33 KOS)

3. CARL FRAMPTON
WBA FEATHERWEIGHT
COUNTRY: U.K.
23-0-0 (14 KOS)

4. SERGEY KOVALEV
COUNTRY: RUSSIA
30-1-1 (26 KOS)

5. TERENCE CRAWFORD
RING, WBC, WBO JR. WELTERWEIGHT
COUNTRY: U.S.
29-0-0 (20 KOS)

No "shitting on", I don't care what anyones list is, but Loma could still make 126 I'm sure, do you honestly feel that Frampton could ever beat him? I think Frampton is really good and would be somewhere in my top 10, but that is a borderline mismatch from the get go.

Originally Posted by p4pking

I don't know about night and day.. Kovalevs been a hell of a lot more active obviously, but if you take an ancient Hopkins out of the mix he hadn't fought anyone all that special until Ward either. Sullivan Barrera may prove himself to be just as good as anyone else Kovalev beat, Rogriguez was decent, etc.

I think Kovalev beat Ward don't get me wrong, but this rematch needs to happen and hopefully it's a more pleasing outcome this time all round.

One thing we can say for sure is Kovalev has beaten 3 Ring top lt heavyweights and sent another into literal witness protection with zero interest in a fight . Dunno on Rodriquez because he and Ward stunk it out. In hindsight it was his peak to plummet moment.

Originally Posted by p4pking

No "shitting on", I don't care what anyones list is, but Loma could still make 126 I'm sure, do you honestly feel that Frampton could ever beat him? I think Frampton is really good and would be somewhere in my top 10, but that is a borderline mismatch from the get go.

Plus Frampton straight ducked Rigo and said he will never fight him. Having him above Rigo is madness.