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Thread: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

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    ykdadamaja is offline Forum Greatest Of All Time Array
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    Default Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    But it is his anticipation of his opponent's moves coupled with above average reflexes! It's not hand-speed to itself, or else Gary Russell Jr. would have won hands down. It's not about power either, or else everyone would be getting knocked out COLD on the floor. It is his superior knowledge of his opponent's moves and sharp reflexes.

    Review the Garry Russell Jr. fight to see what I mean... Gary Rusell was quicker, and maybe even had a little more power than Loma- but he could not stop getting hit, Loma had him chasing shadows all night while, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN RUSSELL'S CAREER, he got OUTGOING fire from his flurries. Not just being beaten with counter-punches, but got OUTGOING FIRE the way Roy Jones Jr. used to give guys a HELLUVA lot of outgoing for coming in.

    Bigger man George, bigger punch!

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Loma is beautiful to watch, he is Joe Galzaghe with punch power.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Loma is beautiful to watch, he is Joe Galzaghe with punch power.
    I never got to watch Calzaghe in earlier years an I let it go but I saw a few of his bouts recently and he is a bigger Loma and a Rigo with a punch and damned entertaining

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Loma is beautiful to watch, he is Joe Galzaghe with punch power.
    I never got to watch Calzaghe in earlier years an I let it go but I saw a few of his bouts recently and he is a bigger Loma and a Rigo with a punch and damned entertaining
    Young Joe was awesome fighter and that was the reason Steve Collins quit the belt. Joe's hands were brittle and that was why he did not throw the power punches later in his career.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    ykdadamaja is offline Forum Greatest Of All Time Array
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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Loma is beautiful to watch, he is Joe Galzaghe with punch power.
    Better than Joe. By miles.
    Bigger man George, bigger punch!

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ykdadamaja View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Loma is beautiful to watch, he is Joe Galzaghe with punch power.
    Better than Joe. By miles.
    Calzaghe has a much higher charged engine even though he is a much bigger fighter. Loma is technically better, but it wouldn't matter when the other guy will have you spitting out the mouthpiece due to the pace by round 8. Calzaghe pulls away down the stretch making it look easier as the fight goes along. Tricky for the first 6.

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    600 punches thrown against Russell Jnr. is a pretty ordinary workrate. Lomachenko is excellent, but to beat Calzaghe you have to outwork him or stop him and that isn't possible. Still, much more realistic than Kovalev or Ward beating him with their 30-40 punch plod and grapple ying and yang.

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Who would ever suggest that Loma's strengths are hand speed or power? It's his footwork. If you don't know now you know.

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Loma is beautiful to watch, he is Joe Galzaghe with punch power.
    Calzaghe! CAL! How many times does @Fenster have to tell you!

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    J_Undisputed is online now Forum Greatest Of All Time Array
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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Not sure what "IT" is referring to.. but if its referring to what makes him so good... There's quite a few things that put him on the level he's on.

    Footwork: As Ron Swanson said, his footwork is far and away better than a lot of fighters. His time in dance school formed good habits and agility when it comes to balance and posture as well dexterity when it comes to pivoting, and moving in an out at angles. Whats more is that his body moves as one as opposed to someone like say a Zab Judah who can good head movement and great reflexes, but moving the body at the waist without adjusting his feet left Zab open to the occasional flash knockdown and often had him losing the game of inches because he could only bend so far up top witch his feet cemented before leaving him off balance or prone to long straight right hands. Loma tends to move both which is why hes always in a position to fire.

    Angles: A big part of Lomachenko's offense, and defense for that matter, is his ability to work the angles... Not just of his attack but of his opponents. He works a lot of angles that a lot of conventional fighters consider a wast of time. For example: looping uppercuts under the elbows from the side--10 and 2 o clock positions (Many fighters consider this fruitless due to a decrease in leverage and don't want to risk muscle/tendon damage that can result from contact with the point of the elbow.) Lomachenko will throw a light arm punch or jab toward his opponents head to bring the opponents guard high, raising and rotating the points of the elbows forward and then looping the uppercut under the lower tricep which is softer and flatter surface and presents less of an obstruction. Loma also uses throwaway punches (pitty patts) to freeze his opponent and then slides off and can target the liver from the 2'o clock position with a straight punch rather than just standing in the cross hairs and trying to loop a hook around the elbow.

    Guile:A lot of his work is done through this method. Angle, distract/divert your attention to where he wants it, and then targets the spot you just left open. Like those times where he shoots an arm straight out to the side to bait a fighter to feinting to the opposite side to line them up to the punch he wants to catch them with. He'll also deliberately leave a spot uncovered knowing his opponents will find the opening too inviting so he can counter them. Many of these take advantage of the body's natural mechanics and instincts/reflexes as a fighter and have them betray you. If you're shelled up along the ropes, he'll use his lead hand to pull your glove away while simultaneously throwing a hook with the rear hand. When you're guard is high and someone starts to pull your hand down and away, your body's natural inclination is retract and tighten your hand/arm and engage in a tug of war. Which essentially leaves you frozen at the instance this happens. So you've been hit before you realize what just happened. (Where as someone like say a wing chun practitioner has been trained over the years to roll their hand in (towards the center of their body) and under and intercept with a straight punch instead of resisting).

    Short explosive movements: If you study a lot of Loma's training, you'll see that much of that (including footwork and visual acuity drills) contain strength and pliability exercises. Especially exercises that employ short explosive movements. Like hopping across the ring on his hands while someone walks behind him holding his ankles wheel barrow style. These type of exercises are designed to give you maximum and power in short range (wing chun practitioners also use similar exercises).

    All of these things are layered on top each other and working together against the opponent. I would stay away from the higher weights for now. Big guys that can't be hurt will not allow him as much time for cerebral plotting. The weight bullies like Salido will just swarm and look to make the fight ugly if he cant earn their respect.
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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Undisputed View Post
    Not sure what "IT" is referring to.. but if its referring to what makes him so good... There's quite a few things that put him on the level he's on.

    Footwork: As Ron Swanson said, his footwork is far and away better than a lot of fighters. His time in dance school formed good habits and agility when it comes to balance and posture as well dexterity when it comes to pivoting, and moving in an out at angles. Whats more is that his body moves as one as opposed to someone like say a Zab Judah who can good head movement and great reflexes, but moving the body at the waist without adjusting his feet left Zab open to the occasional flash knockdown and often had him losing the game of inches because he could only bend so far up top witch his feet cemented before leaving him off balance or prone to long straight right hands. Loma tends to move both which is why hes always in a position to fire.

    Angles: A big part of Lomachenko's offense, and defense for that matter, is his ability to work the angles... Not just of his attack but of his opponents. He works a lot of angles that a lot of conventional fighters consider a wast of time. For example: looping uppercuts under the elbows from the side--10 and 2 o clock positions (Many fighters consider this fruitless due to a decrease in leverage and don't want to risk muscle/tendon damage that can result from contact with the point of the elbow.) Lomachenko will throw a light arm punch or jab toward his opponents head to bring the opponents guard high, raising and rotating the points of the elbows forward and then looping the uppercut under the lower tricep which is softer and flatter surface and presents less of an obstruction. Loma also uses throwaway punches (pitty patts) to freeze his opponent and then slides off and can target the liver from the 2'o clock position with a straight punch rather than just standing in the cross hairs and trying to loop a hook around the elbow.

    Guile:A lot of his work is done through this method. Angle, distract/divert your attention to where he wants it, and then targets the spot you just left open. Like those times where he shoots an arm straight out to the side to bait a fighter to feinting to the opposite side to line them up to the punch he wants to catch them with. He'll also deliberately leave a spot uncovered knowing his opponents will find the opening too inviting so he can counter them. Many of these take advantage of the body's natural mechanics and instincts/reflexes as a fighter and have them betray you. If you're shelled up along the ropes, he'll use his lead hand to pull your glove away while simultaneously throwing a hook with the rear hand. When you're guard is high and someone starts to pull your hand down and away, your body's natural inclination is retract and tighten your hand/arm and engage in a tug of war. Which essentially leaves you frozen at the instance this happens. So you've been hit before you realize what just happened. (Where as someone like say a wing chun practitioner has been trained over the years to roll their hand in (towards the center of their body) and under and intercept with a straight punch instead of resisting).

    Short explosive movements: If you study a lot of Loma's training, you'll see that much of that (including footwork and visual acuity drills) contain strength and pliability exercises. Especially exercises that employ short explosive movements. Like hopping across the ring on his hands while someone walks behind him holding his ankles wheel barrow style. These type of exercises are designed to give you maximum and power in short range (wing chun practitioners also use similar exercises).

    All of these things are layered on top each other and working together against the opponent. I would stay away from the higher weights for now. Big guys that can't be hurt will not allow him as much time for cerebral plotting. The weight bullies like Salido will just swarm and look to make the fight ugly if he cant earn their respect.
    Top post. Especially true...you don't move your head and you don't bend at the waist. You move your head by shifting weight on your feet; you raise and lower your body by moving your weight and the chasing it. Keeps you able to punch with leverage.

    The thing about his angles and the punches he picks comes down to this: He understands being a southpaw and how to maximize it. He certainly moves well and effectively to his right but he goes to his left to draw leads he can counter.

    He reminds me of Ricardo Lopez in this regard. Once the bell rings he comes out and starts doing what he came to do, he starts fighting his fight. It is the opponent that is immediately forced to start compensating and guessing and reacting.

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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    He also moves into position off where he knows they are reacting to off his last shot and also instinctively knows the best adjustment and correct follow up shot to track his target. Not everyone out there does that consistently. Many simply chose distance and pop shot looking for contact through the gaps, some even throw straight shots at a swaying target instead of adjusting the feet and following through the path of it like he does.
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    Default Re: Been watching Lomachenko- It is NOT his hand speed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ykdadamaja View Post
    But it is his anticipation of his opponent's moves coupled with above average reflexes! It's not hand-speed to itself, or else Gary Russell Jr. would have won hands down. It's not about power either, or else everyone would be getting knocked out COLD on the floor. It is his superior knowledge of his opponent's moves and sharp reflexes.

    Review the Garry Russell Jr. fight to see what I mean... Gary Rusell was quicker, and maybe even had a little more power than Loma- but he could not stop getting hit, Loma had him chasing shadows all night while, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN RUSSELL'S CAREER, he got OUTGOING fire from his flurries. Not just being beaten with counter-punches, but got OUTGOING FIRE the way Roy Jones Jr. used to give guys a HELLUVA lot of outgoing for coming in.

    i have been watching a lot of lomachenko fights myself. a lot of amateur lomachenko fights. lomachenko does this thing where he slips inside on a guy. thats how he sets everything up. looks like this.



    the inside slip is a pretty unique move in boxing in that it has multiple functions. you can do a lot of different things with the motion.

    you can slip punches with it like this.



    and you can slip as you counter in one smooth motion like this.



    you can steal left hands off of it like this.



    which also means that just showing it to a guy becomes a feint like this.



    lomachenko does it all the time and since it has a series of different functions it creates a series of different problems for the guy he is showing it to. but the real reason i think he does it, above all that is, is he wants to use it as a way to make you think he is pressing up closer to you, to try to get you to think he is coming inside, so you start to cover up. what lomachenko wants you to be, above all, is a guy who will stand still and just cover up for him. thats because when he can get you standing still and covering up, then he can start to throw all those little pity pat punches with nothing on them. those big flashy combinations. now because he is flooding you with punches, he has you covering up even more. he is trying to get you covering up so much, that you start to go into a purely defensive state. now youre out the fight. he gets to throw punches. you dont. so he wins the fight. you lose. and thats it.

    thats a style that is definitely designed to work the way its supposed to. i can appreciate the way he engineered this whole thing together. i can understand why it was so effective in the amateurs. and when you see him dominate guys in the pros, its always that same one sided, i get to throw a lot of punches and you dont, sort of way.

    so heres the thing. if he has a style that he has put together to try to trick guys into staying in a defensive mode for him, but the guy refuses to play his little game and just stand there covering up, all the sudden he is in a real fight. now lets say he is in there with a guy who is willing to punch with him. if you can punch i can punch. lets say hes a guy who isnt just trying to load up on one big shot like nicholas walters, or like jason sosa. a sort of guy who is just willing to let his hands go. lets call this guy orlando salido. and maybe you can understand why lomachenko was reaching out to grab and hold salido whenever he got close so much in that fight and why he was never able to get going at all against him as a result of all that holding he was doing. since he couldnt get orlando salido to fight his fight he actually was being forced to fight an honest fight. now imagine that, a boxer actually forcing another boxer to fight an honest fight. well he didnt seem to really want to do that and he held all night.

    theres another guy who i think gives him a lot of problems. that would be mikey garcia. the reason being is, he can move his feet. he wont just stand there covering up with his hands glued to his head. he can move his feet and its hard to put combinations together on a non stationary target. so that'll make lomachenko's punch output drop a lot lower than it has been in some of his last fights. so it'll be hard to win rounds. also garcia can work a steady jab, and that was always the best engineered sort of scheme so to speak to me. that is, move your feet so he cant hit you, work your jab so he cant out work you. you win. he loses. thats it.

    sure would be nice to see those two go at it, to see whose theory about boxing is really the right one. i dont think its lomachenko.
    Last edited by Yuzo; 04-21-2017 at 09:09 PM.

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