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Thread: Controversial post - the value of trainers

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    Default Controversial post - the value of trainers

    Hi All,

    During a foray in the early noughties of sponsoring a pro fighter, losing money, and meeting loads of boxing greats, I had many discussions about the value of a boxing 'trainer'. The consensus was basically that boxers, like footballers, golfers etc. are born not made, you've got it, or you ain't.

    Any silly sod in Lycra can run around the park with a boxer to keep him 'fit', but if a true boxer doesn't know he needs to do that, then he's not really in the game. Why should a boxer pay thousands to a so-called 'trainer' just to run around the park with him, when he could just get Lycra Leroy for £10 an hour from a local gym? Or just work it out for himself?

    If all 'trainers' do is keep boxers fit then that's a pretty poor statement on boxers own professionalism, they surely know they have to be fit to pursue the sport?

    As regards gym work then the sight of a 60 odd year old doing pads with a young pro is just as ridiculous as Sam Allardyce or Roy Hodgson donning tracksuits to risk injury to multi-million pound footballers trying to teach them how to play.

    Last Saturdays events with EU JR brought the 'trainer' debate in to focus, what EU needed in his corner was an experienced eye who could tell him how to react to ongoing fight situations, wether that man be called a 'trainer' on x% of the purse, or just a friendly free advisor, is the issue. EU Snr was clearly not up to the job, so that basically says that such and advisor need not necessarily be an ex-pro.

    Sorry to sit on the fence

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    I think that trainers do more than just “train.” I think that most people need somebody to help them schedule out their workouts. The trainer makes sure that when the fighter comes to camp, he doesn’t have to worry about what is going on. If trainers weren’t important then no higher skilled professional would ever switch trainers.

    I do think that there are exceptional fighters who are good regardless of their trainers which gives their trainers more credit than deserved (Roach for example), but there are some trainers who I think get maximum potential out of good fighters (Garcia for example).

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    Trainers are important especially if you want to get to the highest level.

    Fathers as trainers can work Joe Calzaghe is the best example of that but more often than not they fail.

    Good experienced trainers can cost but it works itself out as you will be successful and can afford to pay them. Money sometimes gets in the way of the relationship between a fighter and a trainer Naz with Ingle, Hatton with Graham.

    Sometimes a change in trainer can be good Lennox and Wlad joining Emmanuel Steward changed them completely. Hope Scott Quigg has success with the change in trainer and camp.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Trainers are important especially if you want to get to the highest level.

    Fathers as trainers can work Joe Calzaghe is the best example of that but more often than not they fail.

    Good experienced trainers can cost but it works itself out as you will be successful and can afford to pay them. Money sometimes gets in the way of the relationship between a fighter and a trainer Naz with Ingle, Hatton with Graham.

    Sometimes a change in trainer can be good Lennox and Wlad joining Emmanuel Steward changed them completely. Hope Scott Quigg has success with the change in trainer and camp.
    Aren't you (Deliberately) forgetting another fine example? I'll give you a clue. Fl**d
    EX - UNIFIED 3 TITLED CHAMPION - FACT! (I’ll be back!)

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    I think you're looking at this only with part of a Coach/Trainers role . i.e. Getting the athlete fit.
    Their role encapsulates far more than that. It's a pair of eyes seeing what you cannot see in the heat of the battle and because you are looking from the outside in, you can maybe see a solution .
    a lot of athletes are just that, but they're not necessarily the greatest thinkers.
    It's one thing knowing what to do , but it's another being able to explain to other people exactly that. Man management is a key aspect of any coaching.
    This is also why the greatest athletes don't always make the greatest trainers/coaches.
    And as far as last Saturday goes, it was basically a case of the blind leading the blind!
    EX - UNIFIED 3 TITLED CHAMPION - FACT! (I’ll be back!)

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    It's horses for courses. In some instances the trainer is essentially redundant, Joe Calzaghe is always a good example. No disrespect to Enzo but Joe could have been trained by a chimp and still been brilliant. Success breeds success and Enzo had some with Rees, Maccarinelli, there maybe a couple more I'm forgetting. You wouldn't say Enzo was a great trainer. He worked his fighters hard and gave them everything but his boxing acumen was lacking.

    Lewis and Klitschko had impeccable fits with Manny. Both started out as aggressive fighters, both got chinned, both went on to utilise the Steward tall fighter template to great effect. Both very smart men, who would have thunk it.

    The apple never falls far from the tree and Eubank Senior wasn't a great trainer or listener. People call for Eubank Sr to step back and promote Ronnie Davies from grease boy to 'head' trainer. I'm not sure how that helps. No disrespect to Davies but I don't ever remember him working wonders for the old man, he was 'there' and gave Sr a pantomime slap around the face on cue. Davies must have been softened by time and his place in the Eubank circus, I wouldn't hold much hope of Jr paying any attention to him, not now.

    People, fighters, are born with mental and physical gifts that make them predisposed to a particular sport or pursuit with little refinement required. But it doesn't cover everything.

    The trainers job is to build a boxer from the ground up. Teach all the things that can be taught, the jab, the cross, the hook and uppercut, then make them work seamlessly. Footwork, defence, discipline and fitness. Impart experience, wisdom, praise and criticism when required, to tell the truth. When you've done all those things, you might just find success, but it's not guaranteed.
    When God said to the both of us "Which one of you wants to be Sugar Ray?" I guess I didnt raise my hand fast enough

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    There is no such thing as a 'natural' fighter. Some pick it up quicker than others but, behind every 'natural', there is somebody that invested thousands of hours into teaching them. Like Floyd; his 'natural' ability is the result of knowledgeable people teaching him about boxing from the day he was born.

    On the other hand, there are numerous buffoons with punch mitts that don't know anything about boxing. And equally as many that are top notch at getting guys into shape to fight but have no clue about teaching them to fight. These guys will have success to a point and be highly esteemed because most people- even boxing people- don't know much if anything about how boxing is done, from the thought process to the mechanics of it all.

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    Just ask Eubank Jr a trainer is there to oversee the preparation of his fighter and the fighters welfare you need a trainer simple Grey is totally correct on all his points.

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    Quote Originally Posted by Memphis View Post
    It's horses for courses. In some instances the trainer is essentially redundant, Joe Calzaghe is always a good example. No disrespect to Enzo but Joe could have been trained by a chimp and still been brilliant. Success breeds success and Enzo had some with Rees, Maccarinelli, there maybe a couple more I'm forgetting. You wouldn't say Enzo was a great trainer. He worked his fighters hard and gave them everything but his boxing acumen was lacking.

    Lewis and Klitschko had impeccable fits with Manny. Both started out as aggressive fighters, both got chinned, both went on to utilise the Steward tall fighter template to great effect. Both very smart men, who would have thunk it.

    The apple never falls far from the tree and Eubank Senior wasn't a great trainer or listener. People call for Eubank Sr to step back and promote Ronnie Davies from grease boy to 'head' trainer. I'm not sure how that helps. No disrespect to Davies but I don't ever remember him working wonders for the old man, he was 'there' and gave Sr a pantomime slap around the face on cue. Davies must have been softened by time and his place in the Eubank circus, I wouldn't hold much hope of Jr paying any attention to him, not now.

    People, fighters, are born with mental and physical gifts that make them predisposed to a particular sport or pursuit with little refinement required. But it doesn't cover everything.

    The trainers job is to build a boxer from the ground up. Teach all the things that can be taught, the jab, the cross, the hook and uppercut, then make them work seamlessly. Footwork, defence, discipline and fitness. Impart experience, wisdom, praise and criticism when required, to tell the truth. When you've done all those things, you might just find success, but it's not guaranteed.
    I hear what you're saying about Enzo Calzaghe and I understand about Success breeding Success, but I still think you're doing him a little disservice.
    He had about 4 World champions and other guys that picked up titles. I think that because he didn't have a massive boxing background or "Pedigree" , people assume that he didn't know much. I think sometimes people work hard at learning their art and get there . Shane McGuigan is an example of a very studious trainer and in soccer , Mourinho started as a club translator.
    I'm not saying you can get everything from books, I think it's how you man manage and get that point over .
    the thing with Enzo's stable , is that you have guys like Enzo Maccarinelli and Gary Lockett that talk very knowledgeably about boxing, and they must've picked some of that up through Enzo Calzaghe I believe.
    EX - UNIFIED 3 TITLED CHAMPION - FACT! (I’ll be back!)

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    A good trainer used to be a lot more than just a cardio partner. They were part strategist, conditioning coach, educator, babysitter, therapist, and Authoritarian father figure. Its become more compartmentalized now a days. It all comes down to the fighter and the trainer. Will he pick a good trainer that has his respect and absorb what he needs to and apply it in the ring? Does the trainer know that you can develop strategy all you want but the application is different when youre the one taking the punches? Are you talking about how another fighter would beat your fighters opponent or did you plan this out/train/coach with your fighters limitations in mind?

    -Would people be singing the Pacmans praises like they did without roach? or would he still be the guy who was dropped by body shots? Say what you want about roach or about pac being predictable... but the difference in punches landed and style were night and day.

    -Would JMM have come as far as he did without Nacho?

    -Would there be a lot less talk lanky fighters in the history books without Emmanuel Steward?

    - Wouldn't tyson had done just as well under aaron snowell and jay bright as he did under Cus and Kevin?

    - is it a coincidence that Chocolatito struggled after his trainer (Obando) passed?

    As for the fighter, there was one point where Jameel McCline had employed a sports therapist, a trainer, a condition coach and other fringe specialists all at the same time... and well you saw how that worked out. I think of it like faith, you get out of it what you put into it. Those things can't magically make you a better fighter. The most effective ingredient in that fighter trainer/fighter relationship is trust. Which is why trainers were all to happy to move on after Oscar blamed them and then switched trainers.

    Father/Son teams are hit or miss but work on the same principle. Unless your son trusts you, it doesn't matter if he fears you or fears disappointing you. Even good father son teams break and/or flop after a while. The judahs, the moselys, the Jones, the mayweathers.... Sometimes eventually you have to let your son come into his own. Can that happen without it affecting the training/ trust. The porters seem to have a decent bond.
    They want your @$$ beat because upsets make news. News brings about excitement, excitement brings about ratings. The objective is to bring you up to the tower and tear your @$$ down. And if you don't believe that, you're crazy.

    Roy Jones, Jr. "What I've Learned," Esquire 2003

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    I always wonder why Kevin Rooney has not found success with another fighter. Everybody loves Tyson, lots of stocky boxers out there would LOVE to fight that way, but I think the best fighter he's had since Tyson was Pazienza for a while. About 12 years ago Rooney had Leonard Pierre Anasta a middleweight from Haiti and Thomas Hayes a heavyweight from Chicago both were never even close to being title challengers.


    One would think that the Tyson-D'Mato-Rooney Peek-a-Boo style would catch back on again especially with everyone these days trying to fight like their version of Bernard Hopkins or as if they were trained by Manny Steward. Control the distance with the jab, be very cagey and rough on the inside, and never open yourself up. Some trainer out there has to know that the kryptonite for that style is footwork, head movement, and accurate combination punching.


    I guess Freddie Roach is that guy right now, but who is his protege?



    Manny Steward really has brought along a couple generations of very effective fighters, very smart.
    Last edited by El Kabong; 03-03-2018 at 08:19 AM.
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    I think many would be surprised at how many "great trainers" don't do any day to day gym work, don't devise or teach the fight plans, but show up a week or ten days pre fight to learn the plan and terminology, then do the fight on television.

    In many cases the attraction to a particular gym isn't the trainer, though it is sold that way to maintain reputations and cash flow. Guys follow good sparring and learn from that, not the "great" trainer. One of the current greats isn't the top attraction in his gym; he's third, behind his father and the sparring.

    Once you get a guy, a champion, you become the guy, and, generally stay the guy. One of the top guys now has never started a guy that amounted to anything- years ago he stole a fighter somebody else built and that made a name. Money guys believe in him so he gets top guys and they often do well, though he had one go bad and a lot of people are smirking at that.

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    The top trainers act like consultants and get paid to come in the last few weeks and fight night. Emmanuel Steward did that late in his career with Naz.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Controversial post - the value of trainers

    The trainer has little to do with the fitness of the fighter. Nowadays, the trainer only arrives for the last part of fight preparation (which I think is wrong by the way)

    The trainer teaches the fighter technique, embeds muscle memory, devises tactics and is the calm voice in the corner who sees what the fighter cannot see.

    Now, some trainers are not very good ... just like any other profession ....... but

    Joe Louis would not have nearly so good without Chappie Blackburn, Tyson was a product of his trainers, where would Joe Frazier have been without Eddie Futch or Marciano without Charley Goldman??
    If God wanted us to be vegetarians, why are animals made of meat ?

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