Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
welterweight probly isn't the average size of men anymore
more like super middle or light heavy wouldn't you say?
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Super middle or light heavy is more like the average weight men in western countries walk around at. If you look at people from all over the place in fighting shape, I think Fenster is definitely right here. The majority of people have never been fit enough to do 12 rounds, and if they were would be much lighter. A light heavyweight is generally a big man, if they weren't worried about competing in an endurance sport or making the weight they would be well heavier than most.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
This was a very good fight. I thought it was fantastic how they would touch gloves/ hug at the end of each round and nod appreciation to each others efforts. I had Gonzalez winning a razor thin decision; a draw at the very least. That Gonzalez is fighting in his forth weight class in his late 20s at these lower divisions shows his class. Quality fight from both guys.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
This was a very good fight. I thought it was fantastic how they would touch gloves/ hug at the end of each round and nod appreciation to each others efforts. I had Gonzalez winning a razor thin decision; a draw at the very least. That Gonzalez is fighting in his forth weight class in his late 20s at these lower divisions shows his class. Quality fight from both guys.
This is a Thai thing. They do the same while trying to take each others face out with elbows at Lumpini in Muay Thai matches. Thai sparring is also playful and relaxed. They put a big emphasis into keeping tension away during a fight. This does not only breeds this type of sportsmen, but it also breeds huge punchers and fighters with very good stamina.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wanderingfighter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
This was a very good fight. I thought it was fantastic how they would touch gloves/ hug at the end of each round and nod appreciation to each others efforts. I had Gonzalez winning a razor thin decision; a draw at the very least. That Gonzalez is fighting in his forth weight class in his late 20s at these lower divisions shows his class. Quality fight from both guys.
This is a Thai thing. They do the same while trying to take each others face out with elbows at Lumpini in Muay Thai matches. Thai sparring is also playful and relaxed. They put a big emphasis into keeping tension away during a fight. This does not only breeds this type of sportsmen, but it also breeds huge punchers and fighters with very good stamina.
True but Gonzalez didn't have to oblige him. Huge respect shown by both guys. Great sportsmanship to showcase our sport.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
Many Thai fighters fight a bunch of times a year to keep active, sometimes against guys making their debut. Calling Wangek a nobody is pretty ignorant and disrespectful to his ability. He was starting to bust up Cuadras before the fight was cut short due to a cut.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.
I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.
Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.
Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.
I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.
Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.
Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.
Do not think he is shit fighter or anything but top guy in the world is pretty big claim. Your right just because there less of them and the money not there does not mean there is no talent but it does not help. Do you feel this guy is beating better fighters then Ward Crawford, Kovalev even past it Pacman whooped Bradley ass not long ago . Pound for pound is all subjective I just do not feel he is most talented fighter in the world. Top 10 guy sure i can see that but better then some of talent at weight classes at 140-175 I am not in that line of thinking. The fight was great and all but that guy has some gaps in the defense that he could fight better off the back foot if he was losing exchanges.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Don't quote me but I think the majority had Gonzalez winning. He is fighting naturally bigger guys at a stage in his career when many little guys have already started to slip.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
I'm specifically talking about the substance of divisions/weight-classes not P4P. Fair enough if you don't think so and so is P4P, choose whoever you want, there's no right or wrong.
Yes I believe the quality of guys in the lighter divisions is just as good - if not stronger - as other divisions.
Once again... Chocolatito has competed at the highest level among a pool of over 2000 fighters, there's not a lack of talent or competition, they are just not famous fighters, competing in weight-classes that are not heavily supported or popular in the west.
Kovalev has never fought outside lightheavy. That division currently holds just 1100 fighters, so his career competition pool to date is 50% of Chocolatito's.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Just looking at 115 shows the quality of fighters Gonzalez has to compete with. Inoue, Cuadras, Wangek, Estrada, Ancajas, Yafai, McJoe, Concepcion, Inoue's brother, Ishida, Kono, Jimenez, Igarashi, Muranaka, Tso, Casimero. That's not even looking at Chocolatito's record and the guys he's beaten or the other divisions he competed at.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.
I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.
Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.
Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I'm specifically talking about the substance of divisions/weight-classes not P4P. Fair enough if you don't think so and so is P4P, choose whoever you want, there's no right or wrong.
Yes I believe the quality of guys in the lighter divisions is just as good - if not stronger - as other divisions.
Once again... Chocolatito has competed at the highest level among a pool of over 2000 fighters, there's not a lack of talent or competition, they are just not famous fighters, competing in weight-classes that are not heavily supported or popular in the west.
Kovalev has never fought outside lightheavy. That division currently holds just 1100 fighters, so his career competition pool to date is 50% of Chocolatito's.
Ok but when you look at Crawford he has fought in talent pool of 3858 and has been super dominate while doing so at lw and lww. Anyone that moves between 135 and 147 has huge pool of fighters that compete with way more money. Not to mention 147 that division is deeper and more talented then any division Chocolatito has been in. Crawford is probably most talented fighter I have seen in a while hard time seeing him under that guy at the very least.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Not sure why you think money is relevant to this? But anyway... yes the closer you get to the average size man, the world over, the more populated the weightclass will be.
That's why you see welterweights-middleweights ranging from 5'3 to 6'3. You'll never see a 5'3 heavyweight or a 6'3 flyweight.
It's physically impossible for Chocolatito to compete at welterweight just as it's impossible for Crawford to compete at heavyweight. Hence, P4P. It doesn't matter how skilled they are, the reality is a relatively "poor" heavyweight (in shape, that knows what he's doing) would literally kill them.
Whether or not you think Crawford is better than so and so is your personal choice. Again, there's no right or wrong, we can't prove it. :)
