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What's next for Cotto
I wanted to get on the forum after the fight, but too many people watching at home… and then the post-fight cleanup. Went to sleep well into Sunday morning.
Now I’m reading all the posts about the fight and they’ve mostly been pretty spot on. I thought this was hands down one of Cotto’s best showings ever. Right up there with Cotto-Mosley and Cotto-Judah. He didn’t tire down the stretch… he put pressure on Floyd… he bloodied Floyd’s nose and made him work harder than he has in quite a while… he went to the body… and finally, he gave us fans a wonderful spectacle of a fight, just like I knew he would.
I would’ve loved for Cotto to pull off the upset, but Floyd clearly won the fight. Although I too have some misgivings about the margin of victory on the judges scorecards. I think it was closer than they scored it. I was also annoyed by Emamuel Stewart’s comments about Cotto’s performance after the fight. I thought he was too critical, pointing out what Cotto did wrong more than what he did right. I would’ve expected different from Stewart.
Cotto did me proud last night. He fought his heart out… and gave Floyd all he could handle. Props to Floyd for being up to the task. He showed why’s the world’s p4p #1. But no one in recent years has given Floyd the trouble Cotto did. Not Hatton, not Ortiz, not Mosley… not anyone.
And to those few posters that will now discredit Floyd rather than give credit to Cotto: C’mon…. stop it. Give credit where credit is due. This was an honest-to-goodness championship fight, between two ATG’s and future HOF’ers. Cotto brought it, and so did Floyd. The crowd was thoroughly entertained, just like I said it would be. Cotto is never in a “non-crowd-pleasing” fight.
Inevitably, there are those who now will say: “Pac would now beat Floyd”…. blah, blah, blah. It never fails. The guy ekes out a win… and now all of sudden he’s fresh prey for the others. Well… I wouldn’t get too carried away. Rather, I now even more strongly stand by my earlier statements that Cotto would’ve given Pacquiao a hell of a fight and possible beaten him, had he been with Pedro Diaz in his corner for that fight. As it was, Cotto was jabbing Pac’s head back and possible dominated the first couple of rounds. But he abandoned his fight plan. Last night’s Cotto would’ve very possibly beaten Pac. I said that then, and I say it now. No hate on Pac… just an opinion.
Let’s see where Cotto goes from here.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
See if Pacquiao will fight him at 154 with random blood tests:confused::rolleyes:
I feel either Alvarez or Chavez Jr. would be the best likely to happen fights for him. I think he'd neuter Jr. even at 160, but it would be good to watch and obviously a great payday. I do feel he could beat Martinez, I wonder if Sergio would either come down or meet him at a catch weight though? Cotto is to small for 160 no doubt but I'm not sure what real paydays are out there at 154 aside from Canelo. He could always fight Margarito again as they are still even in terms of facial damage:-X
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Tough call here, I think that was that was the fight of Cotto's life. I really cant see him being able to take Alvarez, Alvarez is too big and strong. Same goes for Chavez and Martinez.
He could coax Pauli Malignaggi (who has a belt again) up to 154 and beat him up again in Madison Square Garden, that would be a huge fight in the Garden. From there he would still probably be able to outbox and beat James Kirland, call it a career after that.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Outbox Kirkland? He'd be able to slaughter him! Kirkland would get hit with the kitchen sink and would be lucky to see round 3, that one I didn't think of good match for Cotto.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Tough call here, I think that was that was the fight of Cotto's life. I really cant see him being able to take Alvarez, Alvarez is too big and strong. Same goes for Chavez and Martinez.
He could coax Pauli Malignaggi (who has a belt again) up to 154 and beat him up again in Madison Square Garden, that would be a huge fight in the Garden. From there he would still probably be able to outbox and beat James Kirland, call it a career after that.
I think Cotto can def beat Alvarez. But the timing would be key. A couple of years or couple of fights down the road, the panorama changes considerably, as age is on Canelo's side.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
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Originally Posted by
p4pking
Outbox Kirkland? He'd be able to slaughter him! Kirkland would get hit with the kitchen sink and would be lucky to see round 3, that one I didn't think of good match for Cotto.
The Kirkland that fought Alfredo Angulo would swallow alot of what Cotto was giving out yesterday, Cotto may get a late round stoppage but I think it would be his last winnable tough fight.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Tough call here, I think that was that was the fight of Cotto's life. I really cant see him being able to take Alvarez, Alvarez is too big and strong. Same goes for Chavez and Martinez.
He could coax Pauli Malignaggi (who has a belt again) up to 154 and beat him up again in Madison Square Garden, that would be a huge fight in the Garden. From there he would still probably be able to outbox and beat James Kirland, call it a career after that.
I think Cotto can def beat Alvarez. But the timing would be key. A couple of years or couple of fights down the road, the panorama changes considerably, as age is on Canelo's side.
I just dont see Cotto being able to get Alvarez's respect, Alvarez would walk through Cottos punches and hammer his body until Cotto wilted and was carried out on his shield.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
I have a similar question, is Cotto HoF worthy? If so, then why? He has a lot of good solid wins, but no marquee victory. One could argue Zab Judah or Shane Mosley but with no disrespect to Judah I just do not think a victory over him merits enterence to the Hall of Fame.
As for Mosley he was 36 years old and he's not a crafty boxer. He's a man who's reliant his speed and power rather than technique.
I like Cotto as a man as well as a boxer, he fight everyone. However he fought two elites and losts to both, granted in one, he was weight drained and was with a new ..really new trainer and came off after his first career lost but he still lost.
Im conflicted because I truly respect the man but I just can't think of a reason why he might be considered a Hall of Famer.
I would appreciate it if you could convince me otherwise.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
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Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I have a similar question, is Cotto HoF worthy? If so, then why? He has a lot of good solid wins, but no marquee victory. One could argue Zab Judah or Shane Mosley but with no disrespect to Judah I just do not think a victory over him merits enterence to the Hall of Fame.
As for Mosley he was 36 years old and he's not a crafty boxer. He's a man who's reliant his speed and power rather than technique.
I like Cotto as a man as well as a boxer, he fight everyone. However he fought two elites and losts to both, granted in one, he was weight drained and was with a new ..really new trainer and came off after his first career lost but he still lost.
Im conflicted because I truly respect the man but I just can't think of a reason why he might be considered a Hall of Famer.
I would appreciate it if you could convince me otherwise.
Obviously this is a matter of opinion, but # 1, Cotto list of opponents reads like a "who's who" of boxing. He's never ducked anyone. He fought Margarito when everyone else was avoiding him. It's easy to forget now, that Margarito is damaged goods... but at that time he was the fighter nobody wanted to face. And he lost to a cheating Margarito, only to avenge the defeat last year. It's also easy to dismiss Mosley now, as over-the-hill. But he was not that far from his peak when Cotto beat him, and don't forget how he dismantled Margarito after losing to Cotto. Judah is in the same category. Easy to dismiss now, of course. But a feared fighter when he fought Cotto. You just can't ignore the element of time.
Even beyond those fighters, Cotto has fought and defeated fighters that others have ducked, like Joshua Clottey. And if you go back to Cotto's early career, his opponents include some very good names, included some who were undefeated at the time. It's easy to forget now, because years have passed. But you gotta look at the whole career, not just the last two or three years.
He has also shown the ability to adjust and re-invent himself. Just look at how he came back against Margarito in their 2nd clash, and fought a completely different fight. He stuck and moved... he pushed Margarito backwards... he skillfully spun off the ropes... and he chose when to engage Margarito, who is the naturally bigger, stronger man.
Then there's the HOF issue itself. People here have made arguments for fighters like Hatton belonging in the Hall. I'll be damned if Hatton is HOF-worthy and Cotto isn't, when Miguel has had the better career. And not just Hatton. Other fighters have been mentioned as HOF-worthy here, whose resumes just don't stack up to Cotto's.
But like I said.... it's a matter of opinion. Mine is that Cotto belongs there.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
It doesn't really matter that Mosley wasn't a crafty boxer, surely? He was still a great fighter when Cotto beat him. You're right hes now lost his biggest fights, but last night should only enhance his standing certainly. He has also never taken an easy fight on paper since god knows when, and has solid wins over Malignaggi, Quintana and Clottey. I suspect as he's been so popular and a great sportsman there is no doubt he will get in, but I also don't feel it's undeserved in the slightest. If he isn't worthy who would be from this generation? You're then talking about 3 or 4 people, none of which have been better for boxing than Miguel. Why even have a hall of fame anymore if Cotto isn't worthy, given the current depth of competition...
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Tough call here, I think that was that was the fight of Cotto's life. I really cant see him being able to take Alvarez, Alvarez is too big and strong. Same goes for Chavez and Martinez.
He could coax Pauli Malignaggi (who has a belt again) up to 154 and beat him up again in Madison Square Garden, that would be a huge fight in the Garden. From there he would still probably be able to outbox and beat James Kirland, call it a career after that.
I think Cotto can def beat Alvarez. But the timing would be key. A couple of years or couple of fights down the road, the panorama changes considerably, as age is on Canelo's side.
I just dont see Cotto being able to get Alvarez's respect, Alvarez would walk through Cottos punches and hammer his body until Cotto wilted and was carried out on his shield.
You also thought (and hoped) Floyd would embarrass Cotto.
;)
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Good post Tito you beat me to it. The fact is Cotto has seen everything as a pro now and was quite unfortunate to likely have been cheated in his first 2 defeats. The fact that he has been able to adapt and stick around culminating with that performance last night is just a rock solid case for it as well imo, good point there. Davila's point that Mosley wasn't a crafty boxer would seem to imply that Cotto isn't suited to deal with that, which I think is way off.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.
I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
Number of Title defenses
Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.
If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Onix
Tough call here, I think that was that was the fight of Cotto's life. I really cant see him being able to take Alvarez, Alvarez is too big and strong. Same goes for Chavez and Martinez.
He could coax Pauli Malignaggi (who has a belt again) up to 154 and beat him up again in Madison Square Garden, that would be a huge fight in the Garden. From there he would still probably be able to outbox and beat James Kirland, call it a career after that.
I think Cotto can def beat Alvarez. But the timing would be key. A couple of years or couple of fights down the road, the panorama changes considerably, as age is on Canelo's side.
I just dont see Cotto being able to get Alvarez's respect, Alvarez would walk through Cottos punches and hammer his body until Cotto wilted and was carried out on his shield.
You also thought (and hoped) Floyd would embarrass Cotto.
;)
What does hoping it would happen have to do with anything? I didnt say it was going to be a blow out, I just wanted it to happen.
I have put up my scorecard, I have Cotto winning rounds 3, 6, and 8. 117-111 is a blow out. It was the toughest fight of Floyds career but a clear victory nonetheless.
If Cotto wasnt embaressed he may have given an interview. ;)
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Alvarez makes a great match up, then JCC Jnr.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.
I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
Number of Title defenses
Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.
If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.
I just don't see any reason to have a strict criteria for entry, especially given how little the alphabet belts mean in themselves. Who do you think you are:confused:;D. Cotto has been a face of boxing and given us fans very memorable fights against the best opponents he could've possibly faced over his career. Who aside from Mayweather, Hopkins or Pacquiao is more deserving over the past decade alone? Maybe Wlad? How many weight classes or legitimate champions has he conquered?
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.
I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
Number of Title defenses
Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.
If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.
Again, HOF-worthiness is a matter of opinion, and you're certainly entitled to yours. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with having a higher standard for the HOF than the HOF folks themselves, as you say. As long as it's even-handed across the board. If Cotto isn't worthy in your eyes, then in my mind that also excludes a lot of other fighters from our generation, with the exceptions of Floyd and Pac. My own standards aren't as high as yours, so I happen to think that Cotto definitely belongs there.
Now about your criteria... I got no issue with the first one. Number of title defenses certainly has to be among the criteria for HOF induction. But number of weight classes? Why? Does that mean you have to travel through several weight divisions to be considered? Where does that leave old timers like Carlos Monzon, who fought his entire career at middleweight? How about Ricardo "Finito" Lopez, who finished undefeated and never left his weight division? How about the heavyweights, who only fight at heavyweight? This makes no sense, unless I misunderstood your meaning. Same goes for number of champions dethroned, because this goes hand in hand with the # of weight divisions.
Rather than those, I'd include stuff like quality of opponents. This cannot be ignored. Either by won-loss records or other criteria, the quality of the opponents you face HAS to have tremendous bearing on HOF-worthiness. Quality of wins is another. It's not the same thing to eke out controversial split decisions, or win by DQ, than to win by convincing decision or KO. Also, longevity and/or number of wins. You can't compare a champion who has defended his title for 10 years to one who's only had a couple of title defenses.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.
Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.
You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.
I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
Number of Title defenses
Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.
If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.
I just don't see any reason to have a strict criteria for entry, especially given how little the alphabet belts mean in themselves. Who do you think you are:confused:;D. Cotto has been a face of boxing and given us fans very memorable fights against the best opponents he could've possibly faced over his career. Who aside from Mayweather, Hopkins or Pacquiao is more deserving over the past decade alone? Maybe Wlad?
How many weight classes or legitimate champions has he conquered?
This time you beat me to the point.
;D
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.
Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.
You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.
This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.
;)
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.
Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.
You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.
This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.
;)
Cotto fought a level fight for two rounds, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 3rd, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 4th, then fought the rest of the fight completely on the defensive trying to survive, before finally being saved from the torture.
Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto. He did well in both fights.
No excuses needed. Fact.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.
Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.
You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.
This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.
;)
Cotto fought a level fight for two rounds, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 3rd, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 4th, then fought the rest of the fight completely on the defensive trying to
survive, before finally being saved from the torture.
Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto. He did well in both fights.
No excuses needed. Fact.
No excuses given. It's ok to speculate how Cotto would've done against Pacquiao with a trainer like Pedro Diaz in his corner and a gameplan like he had last night for Floyd. And from my point of view, last night was hardly "Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto." But you're completely biased, and never accept defeat.
Fact.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.
Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.
You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.
This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.
;)
Cotto fought a level fight for two rounds, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 3rd, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 4th, then fought the rest of the fight completely on the defensive trying to
survive, before finally being saved from the torture.
Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto. He did well in both fights.
No excuses needed. Fact.
No excuses given. It's ok to speculate how Cotto would've done against Pacquiao with a trainer like Pedro Diaz in his corner and a gameplan like he had last night for Floyd. And from my point of view, last night was hardly "Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto."
But you're completely biased, and never accept defeat.
Fact.
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How can I be "defeated" if I'm not even competing? I've simply stated how events played out.
Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Fact.
Floyd beat a UD into Cotto. Fact.
You are 100% entitled to speculate on what might have happened. I'm just stating what factually happened. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
yeah cotto was brilliant last night, he did really push floyd but floyd just picked up the pace in the exchanges which was really good to see. Cotto landed some good shots too, but mayweather is just too slick for anybody, i really dont see who can beat him at the momment. I hope he doesnt retire, it was good to see him performing like that, peole are saying hes ageing, but i just think he was enjoying trading with Cotto to give the fans a good show.
as for cotto , i think he can take credit for that performance, he pushed mayweather and tried his best, floyds nose was pretty bad and cotto won rounds with his pressure. I think cotto needs to fight alvarez or kirkland, i would love to see alvarez-cotto, i think alvarez is ready to step it up again, i was impressed with him and mosley last night, that would be great experience for him. I think this fight needs to happen, if cotto carrys on he needs this fight or a fight with kirland, both are exciting fights and make sense for this stage of cottos career.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
First and foremost I must repeat that I have the utmost respect for him and if he is in fact inducted as a first ballot for HOF I would be along the rest to congratulate him on a long successful career.
But here’s my point, there must be a difference between someone who’s a great boxer to someone who’s phenomenal. Compare Hatton at lightweight to Mosley and I hope you that you must agree that there’s a difference of caliber, or Ezzard Charles to Mike Tyson or Vitali Klitschko (and I am an avid big bro fan, not at all little bro.)
The reason I included the multiple weight is that these days a large portion of boxers move up in weight classes, that’s why we have situations in which a fighter is a champion in at least 3 divisions, something that was truly difficult back in the 'golden era' of boxing due to the lack of jr and super of most divisions.
That being said a fighter does not need to meet all parts of it, for example a heavy weight can't possibly move up in weight and he can't beat many other champs since he is the man, so in that regard only title defense and quality of opposition matters.
For fighter who never his division then it is entirely dependent on title defenses and the quality of opponents, I regret my foresight for not including in that one earlier but I agree that is very important.
I'll admit I wrote this in haste and could have worded for less ambiguity. However as an example Sergio Martinez does not have an alphabet belt I believe but we all consider him the man to beat in the Middleweight division.
As for quality of wins, I believe my statement in regards to beating 'the man of the division' would qualify as that but you have worded it much better than I have.
All that said and done with my poor wording set aside, I’m trying to say that there must be a gap that sets the legendary apart from the damn good. The Legendary fighter should be a Hall of Famer because he truly is set apart from the rest. To me as a reward to their greatneess they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
To me Cotto is the Carl Froch of the lighter divisions, an excellent fighter, a true gentleman, an ambassador of the sport but as good as he is and he is damn good he’s not phenomenal.
I know this sounds somewhat hostile and I’m doing my best not to sound that way because its not how I feel but watch a Roy fight or, a Duran one and ask yourself does Cotto, in terms of god given ability or craft, match up evenly with these two or any other great?
And yes this is just merely my opinion of a sport that is entirely subjective and as always I do welcome discourse and criticism.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
What's next for Cotto? The fight went as expected with Floyd, he was clearly beaten and it was a wide decision. That's not to say that Cotto fought a bad fight, he didn't, he fought very well, but Mayweather was in superb form again and Cotto just couldn't hit him enough.
Cotto had to assert himself in the first 4 rounds and in reality the fight was over by round 4 with Mayweather brilliantly boxing Cotto's ears off.
Cotto should fight Alvarez or Chavez jr next, maybe then go up and take on Martinez?
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Well hof is pretty low standard seeing some of the people in it Cotto is on that level. But atg i dont think he is even close to that really. His best wins could of gone either way Clotty who is really just a contender. Mosely was a good win but he was always hot and cold and was 36 years of age as well and that fight i think should of been a draw anyhow. His loses to the top were pretty clear pac knocked him out and Floyde won by a pretty good margin it was a tough fight but i thought Cotto was going down in the 12.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Cotto has lost three times. But this one is the only one for which I would say "no excuses". Not trying to be difficult here, but everyone knows the story with the other two losses. With Margarito, Cotto lost to a cheater against whom who knows how much irreparable damage Cotto suffered. F*ck Margarito for that. I'm glad he's a nobody now... and I'm glad Cotto got his revenge and then stared at him like the piece of sh*t he is. Against Pacquiao, I'm gonna stick to my guns and insist that Cotto had no corner. None. Joe "WTF" Santiago had no clue as to how to prepare Cotto for that fight. And even then, Miguel arguably won the first two rounds by outjabbing Pacquaio and snapping his head back repeatedly. But he decided to trade too soon, and got caught cold. Last night's Cotto wouldn't make the same mistake, and would've been a lot more prepared to fight Pac. I don't put too much stock into the catch weight issue... or the PED's issue. But some people do. The suspiciousness regarding the PEDs has never completely gone away. But I won't go that route.
Last night's loss? That was fair and square. A tip-top conditioned Cotto, fighting at his weight. He just lost to the better fighter. But it was by no means a blowout... as some of the haters that are now just coming out of the woodwork would want us to believe. It was a hotly contested fight, where Floyd was tested more than he's been tested in a very, very long time. Ortiz didn't test him. Hatton didn't test him. Marquez didn't test him. Cotto tested him.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
First and foremost I must repeat that I have the utmost respect for him and if he is in fact inducted as a first ballot for HOF I would be along the rest to congratulate him on a long successful career.
But here’s my point, there must be a difference between someone who’s a great boxer to someone who’s phenomenal. Compare Hatton at lightweight to Mosley and I hope you that you must agree that there’s a difference of caliber, or Ezzard Charles to Mike Tyson or Vitali Klitschko (and I am an avid big bro fan, not at all little bro.)
The reason I included the multiple weight is that these days a large portion of boxers move up in weight classes, that’s why we have situations in which a fighter is a champion in at least 3 divisions, something that was truly difficult back in the 'golden era' of boxing due to the lack of jr and super of most divisions.
That being said a fighter does not need to meet all parts of it, for example a heavy weight can't possibly move up in weight and he can't beat many other champs since he is the man, so in that regard only title defense and quality of opposition matters.
For fighter who never his division then it is entirely dependent on title defenses and the quality of opponents, I regret my foresight for not including in that one earlier but I agree that is very important.
I'll admit I wrote this in haste and could have worded for less ambiguity. However as an example Sergio Martinez does not have an alphabet belt I believe but we all consider him the man to beat in the Middleweight division.
As for quality of wins, I believe my statement in regards to beating 'the man of the division' would qualify as that but you have worded it much better than I have.
All that said and done with my poor wording set aside, I’m trying to say that there must be a gap that sets the legendary apart from the damn good. The Legendary fighter should be a Hall of Famer because he truly is set apart from the rest. To me as a reward to their greatneess they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
To me Cotto is the Carl Froch of the lighter divisions, an excellent fighter, a true gentleman, an ambassador of the sport but as good as he is and he is damn good he’s not phenomenal.
I know this sounds somewhat hostile and I’m doing my best not to sound that way because its not how I feel but watch a Roy fight or, a Duran one and ask yourself does Cotto, in terms of god given ability or craft, match up evenly with these two or any other great?
And yes this is just merely my opinion of a sport that is entirely subjective and as always I do welcome discourse and criticism.
The statement about Carl Froch is really close, but in all honesty, pound for pound I think Cotto is a better boxer and has more talent, not just a little but alot more. However, in relation to the rest of the competition in their weight classes and opposition they have faced, Cotto is the Froch of his division.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
It's time for Cotto to go with the young pups and see if he still has what it takes. Alvarez is a good choice.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
rematch Manny or winner of berto ortiz
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Re: What's next for Cotto
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Originally Posted by
Pavlik
rematch Manny or winner of berto ortiz
I like Cotto's chances in both of those.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Cotto next fight should be Alvarez for that is worth a PPV buy. Not Kirkland!!! But if Cotto dont fight Alvarez here a few other good fights for Cotto . . .
Molina
Lara
K-9(trained by Manny Steward and have a title)
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Re: What's next for Cotto
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I wanted to get on the forum after the fight, but too many people watching at home… and then the post-fight cleanup. Went to sleep well into Sunday morning.
Now I’m reading all the posts about the fight and they’ve mostly been pretty spot on. I thought this was hands down one of Cotto’s best showings ever. Right up there with Cotto-Mosley and Cotto-Judah. He didn’t tire down the stretch… he put pressure on Floyd… he bloodied Floyd’s nose and made him work harder than he has in quite a while… he went to the body… and finally, he gave us fans a wonderful spectacle of a fight, just like I knew he would.
I would’ve loved for Cotto to pull off the upset, but Floyd clearly won the fight. Although I too have some misgivings about the margin of victory on the judges scorecards. I think it was closer than they scored it. I was also annoyed by Emamuel Stewart’s comments about Cotto’s performance after the fight. I thought he was too critical, pointing out what Cotto did wrong more than what he did right. I would’ve expected different from Stewart.
Cotto did me proud last night. He fought his heart out… and gave Floyd all he could handle. Props to Floyd for being up to the task. He showed why’s the world’s p4p #1. But no one in recent years has given Floyd the trouble Cotto did. Not Hatton, not Ortiz, not Mosley… not anyone.
And to those few posters that will now discredit Floyd rather than give credit to Cotto: C’mon…. stop it. Give credit where credit is due. This was an honest-to-goodness championship fight, between two ATG’s and future HOF’ers. Cotto brought it, and so did Floyd. The crowd was thoroughly entertained, just like I said it would be. Cotto is never in a “non-crowd-pleasing” fight.
Inevitably, there are those who now will say: “Pac would now beat Floyd”…. blah, blah, blah. It never fails. The guy ekes out a win… and now all of sudden he’s fresh prey for the others. Well… I wouldn’t get too carried away. Rather, I now even more strongly stand by my earlier statements that Cotto would’ve given Pacquiao a hell of a fight and possible beaten him, had he been with Pedro Diaz in his corner for that fight. As it was, Cotto was jabbing Pac’s head back and possible dominated the first couple of rounds. But he abandoned his fight plan. Last night’s Cotto would’ve very possibly beaten Pac. I said that then, and I say it now. No hate on Pac… just an opinion.
Let’s see where Cotto goes from here.
Great Post @TitoFan - Cotto impressed me more in this losing effort than he had in his last three fights. I underestimated him. He fought hard until the end of the 12th round. I actually had Cotto winning 3-4 rounds and for the first time since Castillo, Mayweather looked vulnerable. The Cotto that fought Mayweather would be a tough fight for Pacquiao now. Frankly, I believe it's a toss up fight at this stage, and if Bradley doesn't beat him first, Pacquiao-Cotto II, makes a lot of sense. With regard to Mayweather, he did a great job against a quality opponent. He should be credited for the win. It was a good night for boxing. For the first time in what seems like a while, there was no controversy isurrounding a big fight. It was a fun fight too.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I have a similar question, is Cotto HoF worthy? If so, then why? He has a lot of good solid wins, but no marquee victory. One could argue Zab Judah or Shane Mosley but with no disrespect to Judah I just do not think a victory over him merits enterence to the Hall of Fame.
As for Mosley he was 36 years old and he's not a crafty boxer. He's a man who's reliant his speed and power rather than technique.
I like Cotto as a man as well as a boxer, he fight everyone. However he fought two elites and losts to both, granted in one, he was weight drained and was with a new ..really new trainer and came off after his first career lost but he still lost.
Im conflicted because I truly respect the man but I just can't think of a reason why he might be considered a Hall of Famer.
I would appreciate it if you could convince me otherwise.
Obviously this is a matter of opinion, but # 1, Cotto list of opponents reads like a "who's who" of boxing. He's never ducked anyone. He fought Margarito when everyone else was avoiding him. It's easy to forget now, that Margarito is damaged goods... but at that time he was the fighter nobody wanted to face. And he lost to a cheating Margarito, only to avenge the defeat last year. It's also easy to dismiss Mosley now, as over-the-hill. But he was not that far from his peak when Cotto beat him, and don't forget how he dismantled Margarito after losing to Cotto. Judah is in the same category. Easy to dismiss now, of course. But a feared fighter when he fought Cotto. You just can't ignore the element of time.
Even beyond those fighters, Cotto has fought and defeated fighters that others have ducked, like Joshua Clottey. And if you go back to Cotto's early career, his opponents include some very good names, included some who were undefeated at the time. It's easy to forget now, because years have passed. But you gotta look at the whole career, not just the last two or three years.
He has also shown the ability to adjust and re-invent himself. Just look at how he came back against Margarito in their 2nd clash, and fought a completely different fight. He stuck and moved... he pushed Margarito backwards... he skillfully spun off the ropes... and he chose when to engage Margarito, who is the naturally bigger, stronger man.
Then there's the HOF issue itself. People here have made arguments for fighters like Hatton belonging in the Hall. I'll be damned if Hatton is HOF-worthy and Cotto isn't, when Miguel has had the better career. And not just Hatton. Other fighters have been mentioned as HOF-worthy here, whose resumes just don't stack up to Cotto's.
But like I said.... it's a matter of opinion. Mine is that Cotto belongs there.
And for what it's worth, he's been a champion in three weight classes. It's a close call to me. If Cotto got one more marquee win, maybe over Alvarez, or another top junior middleweight, or better yet, avenged his Pacquiao loss, he's in, I think.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ant Live
Cotto next fight should be Alvarez for that is worth a PPV buy. Not Kirkland!!! But if Cotto dont fight Alvarez here a few other good fights for Cotto . . .
Molina
Lara
K-9(trained by Manny Steward and have a title)
Cotto only fights marquee, big-name fighters at this stage in his career so Lara, Molina or Bundrage are fights that won't be made. Cotto versus Martinez or Alvarez are the fights to make for him at 154. Both are ppv-worthy events. Oscar said that Alvarez isn't ready for Mayweather. At 21, that's completely fair. Is he ready for Cotto? I'm not sure either. It's a closer call.
Even after Cotto's performance, I still stand by the fact that Cotto is fighting at 154 because it's easier for him to make weight, not because it's his most effective weight class. A true strong junior middleweight would give him a tough fight, just based on size. I really thought we were seeing two true welterweights fighting at 154 on Saturday.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Cotto vs Martinez interests me the most. Sergio is a smallish middleweight and Cotto has had good success vs southpaws. Perhaps Cotto-Paul Williams would sell. Cotto-Alvarez, Cotto-Kirkland, Cotto-Vanes, etc.
Miguel has earned another big money fight, I wouldn't mind seeing him fight the Berto-Ortiz winner either.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Cotto vs Martinez interests me the most. Sergio is a smallish middleweight and Cotto has had good success vs southpaws. Perhaps Cotto-Paul Williams would sell. Cotto-Alvarez, Cotto-Kirkland, Cotto-Vanes, etc.
Miguel has earned another big money fight, I wouldn't mind seeing him fight the Berto-Ortiz winner either.
Not a a bad call. In terms of big pay days, it's Martinez, Berto/Ortiz winner, and Alvarez in that order, I think for me.
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Re: What's next for Cotto
Cotto lost but he has many more options than Floyd who won.
Alvarez and Martinez wonuld be 2 big fights for him for starters.
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Fight canelo if he wins then rematch paquiao if he wins that rematch floyd then maybe retire.