Wlad vs the ATG HWs such as Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Foreman, Lewis, etc.

I respect Wlad for being the man right now at HW but some of his fans are of the opinion that he belongs up there and possibly beat any atg HW with ease because of size, power, and being allowed to clinch. So let's start the speculation. How would he do against these ATG HWs at their peak?

Wlad vs. ALi?

Wlad vs. Foreman (70s version)?

Wlad vs Holyfield?

Wlad vs. Lennox Lewis?

Wlad vs. Larry Holmes?

Wlad vs. Tyson (80s version)?

Discuss.

I don't think you can really make a definitive fight by fight case as I believe in most encounters between top level fighters the result could vary if they fought multiple times.

Certainly he would be very hard to beat imo. He could definitely be stopped by any of those guys, but if he's able to protect himself, and I imagine he would fight very cautiously he would definitely win some of those fights imo.

I'm not sure I would rate Wlad as highe as any of those guys historically, as he's not had the defining opponents but he's been completely dominant and it would just be ignorance and hating to insist that the others would all smash him. Just because he's a bit chinny and not hugely exciting doesn't mean he's not effective.

Both Klitschko's would rise to the top in any era imo.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I respect Wlad for being the man right now at HW but some of his fans are of the opinion that he belongs up there and possibly beat any atg HW with ease because of size, power, and being allowed to clinch. So let's start the speculation. How would he do against these ATG HWs at their peak?

Wlad vs. ALi? Closer than most people would think. But 7 times out of 10, I'd pick Ali by decision. Ali was a master at adjusting his boxing style to suit the opponent. And was quicker than Wlad.

Wlad vs. Foreman (70s version)? Wlad would win most of the encounters. Foreman was a brute, but had little boxing skills. His only chance would be a Wlad slipup, which of course would result in a devastating KTFO.

Wlad vs Holyfield? Wlad would pound Holyfield into submission almost every time.

Wlad vs. Lennox Lewis? Which Lewis? Bored Lewis? Or motivated Lewis? Bored Lewis would get careless and lose. Motivated Lewis would win most of the time, but the fights would be sensational.

Wlad vs. Larry Holmes? My heart wants to say Wlad by humiliating and devastating KO (I hate Larry Holmes). But in all reality, Holmes would pull off decision wins about 50-60% of the time.

Wlad vs. Tyson (80s version)? I'm going with Tyson in most cases. The 80's version was an animal. His head movement... his activity rate... his pure, scary power... I think he'd win most of the time.

Discuss.

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See my comments above.

I won't say that Wlad is historically better than any of those fighters listed but he'd have a shot vs all of them.

Ali was known for his wins over Frazier and Foreman but those guys fought in a crouch and had different styles than Wlad who uses range and enjoys fighting on the outside. I'm not saying who wins I'm saying the style is something Ali was not used to or tested against.

Foreman same as above...he was just too raw in the 70's and used his size and strength....think that would work vs Wlad?

Lewis, on an off night he gets dusted on a good night he would more than likely win. 70/30 Lewis wins.

Holyfield, its a 50/50 fight all the way great style matchup. A couple years ago I would have said 90/10 Holyfield.

Holmes, I think Wlad takes Larry the majority of the time. Larry is great and all but a bigger stronger fighter who can box just as well as Holmes...I just think he flattens Holmes.

Tyson, if anyone has the style to beat Tyson its Wlad, like the Holyfield fight its a great style matchup.

I don't think Joe Louis would fair well vs a lot of fighters but he's #1 in my book.

Ali: I take the '67 Ali which would be the closest to his prime to beat Wlad the majority of the time if they fought. Had great chin and speed of hand and foot with decent power, not to mentioned high ring IQ and adaptability. Wlad of course would beat the 70s version of Ali, but we're talking at their peak here.

Foreman: Had 2 careers, the 70s version of his prime physically but the 80s/90s version was a better well rounded boxer that knew how to conserve stamina and had smarts. But the 70s version was a wreckless wrecking ball, so I pick Wlad to beat him majority of the time if they were to fight on multiple occasions, but make no mistake if Foreman landed it's lights out for Wlad.

Lewis: Best version of Lewis takes it for me almost every time. I don't see Wlad having a chance to beat a motivated and determined Lewis. A fat, out of shape, semi-shot, inactive, and 38 year old Lewis still managed to turned Wlad's older brother's face into spaghetti and meat balls. The worst version of Lewis was still able to beat a prime Vitali, so just think of what a prime and motivated Lewis would do to younger bro.

Holyfield: A prime HW version of Holyfield circa 88-92 takes Wlad. This version had good speed and power, mobility, heart, chin, and iron will. He was momentarily staggered by Foreman with a flush shot but still came back and fired off multiple punches and push Foreman back in 1 of the earlier rounds of their fight, so yes he can handle Wlad's power. People seem to be under the impression since he lost to Lewis in '99 at 37 years old that he would have a problem with the bigger and taller hws, I disagree for that version was not at his best anymore and has started to seriously fade.

Holmes: Has great boxing ability, but I don't know if his chin can hold up considering a prime one went life and death against Norton who was past it. I think his chin wouldn't hold up and Wlad takes it most of the time.

Tyson: 80s version with Rooney training him was a wrecking ball. He takes it most of the time because of head movement, speed, power, and granite chin. Wlad beats post prison Tyson not 80s Rooney trained one.

Tyson with Rooney or without him the Peek-a-boo style has its faults and fighting lanky boxer/punchers who use their height and reach to control range look at Tyson-Tucker and Tyson-Douglas, Wlad is far better than those 2. That style is also useless against bigger bullies see Liston vs Patterson.

These are all hypotheticals though and people are going to see things differently.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Ali: I take the '67 Ali which would be the closest to his prime to beat Wlad the majority of the time if they fought. Had great chin and speed of hand and foot with decent power, not to mentioned high ring IQ and adaptability. Wlad of course would beat the 70s version of Ali, but we're talking at their peak here.

Foreman: Had 2 careers, the 70s version of his prime physically but the 80s/90s version was a better well rounded boxer that knew how to conserve stamina and had smarts. But the 70s version was a wreckless wrecking ball, so I pick Wlad to beat him majority of the time if they were to fight on multiple occasions, but make no mistake if Foreman landed it's lights out for Wlad.

Lewis: Best version of Lewis takes it for me almost every time. I don't see Wlad having a chance to beat a motivated and determined Lewis. A fat, out of shape, semi-shot, inactive, and 38 year old Lewis still managed to turned Wlad's older brother's face into spaghetti and meat balls. The worst version of Lewis was still able to beat a prime Vitali, so just think of what a prime and motivated Lewis would do to younger bro.

Holyfield: A prime HW version of Holyfield circa 88-92 takes Wlad. This version had good speed and power, mobility, heart, chin, and iron will. He was momentarily staggered by Foreman with a flush shot but still came back and fired off multiple punches and push Foreman back in 1 of the earlier rounds of their fight, so yes he can handle Wlad's power. People seem to be under the impression since he lost to Lewis in '99 at 37 years old that he would have a problem with the bigger and taller hws, I disagree for that version was not at his best anymore and has started to seriously fade.

Holmes: Has great boxing ability, but I don't know if his chin can hold up considering a prime one went life and death against Norton who was past it. I think his chin wouldn't hold up and Wlad takes it most of the time.

Tyson: 80s version with Rooney training him was a wrecking ball. He takes it most of the time because of head movement, speed, power, and granite chin. Wlad beats post prison Tyson not 80s Rooney trained one.

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You must be joking Larry Holmes had a 10x better chin than Wladimir Klitschko, and Wladimir Klitschko would never stop Larry Holmes. This is the same Wladimir Klitschko who didn't take a chance against someone like Sultan Ibragimov, and you think he stops Larry Holmes ?

Larry Holmes took a flush shot from Earnie Shavers right on the button. One of the single most devastating shot's in Heavyweight history, and he was up within 4 seconds.

I think you need to watch more of Larry Holmes. He had a better jab than Wladimir Klitschko, better stamina, better speed, better footwork, better chin. The only thing Wladimir Klitschko beats Larry Holmes on is power. But Larry Holmes had enough power to stop Wladimir Klitschko very easily.

As for Ken Norton he wasn't past it, that was his best performance of his career outside of the 1st and 3rd Muhammad Ali fights. Ken Norton gave boxers like Holmes, Ali, trouble. But his style is very awkward and is nothing like Wladimir Klitschko.

Nor does Wladimir Klitschko put on anywhere near the pressure Ken Norton did, and you may not know this but Larry Holmes had a torn bicep going into the fight with Ken Norton.

And still beat him by atleast 4 rounds. I think its an overrated close fight in all honesty. Ken Norton hardly won a round between 2-9, he won alot of the later rounds but still not enough to make up for losing pretty much almost all the early rounds.

Get the f outta here, what are you basing Wlads skills on? He has fought absolute crap opposition. Give me a effing break. Ridiculous. I think all the guys mentioned in their primes would probably beat Wlad.

They would all beat Wlad with ease i'm afraid. Noticed people are saying Foreman had no boxing skill in the 70's?? Are you mad? Watch some old videos and watch the way he set up the big shots with a thundering jab! The 70's version of Foreman was a beast who always landed on opponents and when he lands on Wlad... well I don't think we need a picture to help us out with what he would do to Wlad, do we??

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Ali: I take the '67 Ali which would be the closest to his prime to beat Wlad the majority of the time if they fought. Had great chin and speed of hand and foot with decent power, not to mentioned high ring IQ and adaptability. Wlad of course would beat the 70s version of Ali, but we're talking at their peak here.

Foreman: Had 2 careers, the 70s version of his prime physically but the 80s/90s version was a better well rounded boxer that knew how to conserve stamina and had smarts. But the 70s version was a wreckless wrecking ball, so I pick Wlad to beat him majority of the time if they were to fight on multiple occasions, but make no mistake if Foreman landed it's lights out for Wlad.

Lewis: Best version of Lewis takes it for me almost every time. I don't see Wlad having a chance to beat a motivated and determined Lewis. A fat, out of shape, semi-shot, inactive, and 38 year old Lewis still managed to turned Wlad's older brother's face into spaghetti and meat balls. The worst version of Lewis was still able to beat a prime Vitali, so just think of what a prime and motivated Lewis would do to younger bro.

Holyfield: A prime HW version of Holyfield circa 88-92 takes Wlad. This version had good speed and power, mobility, heart, chin, and iron will. He was momentarily staggered by Foreman with a flush shot but still came back and fired off multiple punches and push Foreman back in 1 of the earlier rounds of their fight, so yes he can handle Wlad's power. People seem to be under the impression since he lost to Lewis in '99 at 37 years old that he would have a problem with the bigger and taller hws, I disagree for that version was not at his best anymore and has started to seriously fade.

Holmes: Has great boxing ability, but I don't know if his chin can hold up considering a prime one went life and death against Norton who was past it. I think his chin wouldn't hold up and Wlad takes it most of the time.

Tyson: 80s version with Rooney training him was a wrecking ball. He takes it most of the time because of head movement, speed, power, and granite chin. Wlad beats post prison Tyson not 80s Rooney trained one.

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You must be joking Larry Holmes had a 10x better chin than Wladimir Klitschko, and Wladimir Klitschko would never stop Larry Holmes. This is the same Wladimir Klitschko who didn't take a chance against someone like Sultan Ibragimov, and you think he stops Larry Holmes ?

Larry Holmes took a flush shot from Earnie Shavers right on the button. One of the single most devastating shot's in Heavyweight history, and he was up within 4 seconds.

I think you need to watch more of Larry Holmes. He had a better jab than Wladimir Klitschko, better stamina, better speed, better footwork, better chin. The only thing Wladimir Klitschko beats Larry Holmes on is power. But Larry Holmes had enough power to stop Wladimir Klitschko very easily.

As for Ken Norton he wasn't past it, that was his best performance of his career outside of the 1st and 3rd Muhammad Ali fights. Ken Norton gave boxers like Holmes, Ali, trouble. But his style is very awkward and is nothing like Wladimir Klitschko.

Nor does Wladimir Klitschko put on anywhere near the pressure Ken Norton did, and you may not know this but Larry Holmes had a torn bicep going into the fight with Ken Norton.

And still beat him by atleast 4 rounds. I think its an overrated close fight in all honesty. Ken Norton hardly won a round between 2-9, he won alot of the later rounds but still not enough to make up for losing pretty much almost all the early rounds.

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I've seen almost all of Holmes fights.
You must be a Holmes fanboy. Fact was Holmes fought in a crappy hw era much like this one. He's the same age and born in the same year as George Forman but didn't fight the same level of competition that Foreman did in the 70s. His biggest win in the 1970s before he ruled the division? A past his prime Ken Norton that was 35 years old that had been in so many HW wars with lots of wear and tear. So are you going to tell me that Ken Norton was in his prime and fresh when he fought Holmes? And yet he went life and death with Norton. Shavers was in his mid 30s with lots of wear and tear also. Are you saying Shavers was in his prime too? Holmes best wins were 2 past it fighters in Shavers, Norton. In the 80s it was Cooney, Marvis Frazier and a shot Ali that that had Parkinsons disease.

ANd yeah I stand by my opinion that Holmes loses the majority of the time if he were to fight Wlad. He has better movement and stamina, but I don't think his chin is strong enough to withstand a right from Wlad.

I think that K would beat Ali, and fairly easily. He's a tall guy with a good long jab and he would out jab Ali, like Norton did, and Norton didn't have that kind of jab. Eddie Futch noticed something about Ali- that when he jab, his right hand wasn't there to defend against a jab. So you jab when he jabs- catch his, land yours. When Ali's jab wouldn't work, he would have nothing else to work with. Couldn't fight inside, couldn't/didn't punch to the body.
K would also beat Holyfield pretty easily because Evander was never very good at all at avoiding jabs. (See the Lewis fights, Moorer 1, etc...). If K fought him, as he seems to fight most people, by jabbing, then stepping back or around to maintain his distance, it is an easy fight for him. Keep him on the end of the jab and that straight right hand.
I think the early Foreman beats him because of, again, his jab which was very underrated in the first potion of his career. He could also take a punch, get up and win a war, as he did in the Lyle fight, and I don't have faith in K's ability to do that.
Holmes is an interesting proposition, because he, like Ali, relied on his jab. Much harder jab, though, and Larry could fight a bit inside when forced. Good right hand, too, but, honestly, and though I hate to say it, I think K could beat him, if he jabbed, maintained distance, and didn't get clipped with a right from Holmes.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Ali: I take the '67 Ali which would be the closest to his prime to beat Wlad the majority of the time if they fought. Had great chin and speed of hand and foot with decent power, not to mentioned high ring IQ and adaptability. Wlad of course would beat the 70s version of Ali, but we're talking at their peak here.

Foreman: Had 2 careers, the 70s version of his prime physically but the 80s/90s version was a better well rounded boxer that knew how to conserve stamina and had smarts. But the 70s version was a wreckless wrecking ball, so I pick Wlad to beat him majority of the time if they were to fight on multiple occasions, but make no mistake if Foreman landed it's lights out for Wlad.

Lewis: Best version of Lewis takes it for me almost every time. I don't see Wlad having a chance to beat a motivated and determined Lewis. A fat, out of shape, semi-shot, inactive, and 38 year old Lewis still managed to turned Wlad's older brother's face into spaghetti and meat balls. The worst version of Lewis was still able to beat a prime Vitali, so just think of what a prime and motivated Lewis would do to younger bro.

Holyfield: A prime HW version of Holyfield circa 88-92 takes Wlad. This version had good speed and power, mobility, heart, chin, and iron will. He was momentarily staggered by Foreman with a flush shot but still came back and fired off multiple punches and push Foreman back in 1 of the earlier rounds of their fight, so yes he can handle Wlad's power. People seem to be under the impression since he lost to Lewis in '99 at 37 years old that he would have a problem with the bigger and taller hws, I disagree for that version was not at his best anymore and has started to seriously fade.

Holmes: Has great boxing ability, but I don't know if his chin can hold up considering a prime one went life and death against Norton who was past it. I think his chin wouldn't hold up and Wlad takes it most of the time.

Tyson: 80s version with Rooney training him was a wrecking ball. He takes it most of the time because of head movement, speed, power, and granite chin. Wlad beats post prison Tyson not 80s Rooney trained one.

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You must be joking Larry Holmes had a 10x better chin than Wladimir Klitschko, and Wladimir Klitschko would never stop Larry Holmes. This is the same Wladimir Klitschko who didn't take a chance against someone like Sultan Ibragimov, and you think he stops Larry Holmes ?

Larry Holmes took a flush shot from Earnie Shavers right on the button. One of the single most devastating shot's in Heavyweight history, and he was up within 4 seconds.

I think you need to watch more of Larry Holmes. He had a better jab than Wladimir Klitschko, better stamina, better speed, better footwork, better chin. The only thing Wladimir Klitschko beats Larry Holmes on is power. But Larry Holmes had enough power to stop Wladimir Klitschko very easily.

As for Ken Norton he wasn't past it, that was his best performance of his career outside of the 1st and 3rd Muhammad Ali fights. Ken Norton gave boxers like Holmes, Ali, trouble. But his style is very awkward and is nothing like Wladimir Klitschko.

Nor does Wladimir Klitschko put on anywhere near the pressure Ken Norton did, and you may not know this but Larry Holmes had a torn bicep going into the fight with Ken Norton.

And still beat him by atleast 4 rounds. I think its an overrated close fight in all honesty. Ken Norton hardly won a round between 2-9, he won alot of the later rounds but still not enough to make up for losing pretty much almost all the early rounds.

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I've seen almost all of Holmes fights.
You must be a Holmes fanboy. Fact was Holmes fought in a crappy hw era much like this one. He's the same age and born in the same year as George Forman but didn't fight the same level of competition that Foreman did in the 70s. His biggest win in the 1970s before he ruled the division? A past his prime Ken Norton that was 35 years old that had been in so many HW wars with lots of wear and tear. So are you going to tell me that Ken Norton was in his prime and fresh when he fought Holmes? And yet he went life and death with Norton. Shavers was in his mid 30s with lots of wear and tear also. Are you saying Shavers was in his prime too? Holmes best wins were 2 past it fighters in Shavers, Norton. In the 80s it was Cooney, Marvis Frazier and a shot Ali that that had Parkinsons disease.

ANd yeah I stand by my opinion that Holmes loses the majority of the time if he were to fight Wlad. He has better movement and stamina, but I don't think his chin is strong enough to withstand a right from Wlad.

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What about Gerry Cooney ? Tim Witherspoon ? Wladimir Klitschko has fought no one and has been KO'ed twice while he was near enough in his prime by two mediocre fighters.

He just fights scared most of the time now, throwing the same basic jab, right hand, combo. You say Larry Holmes never fought anyone, but i'd a pick Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Tim Witherspoon, ETC. Over any of Wladimir Klitschko's garbage opposition.

As for Earnie Shavers hold on a minute, the 1st time he fought Larry Holmes he was coming off his best performance vs Muhammad Ali. And when they fought a 2nd time he was just coming off destroying Ken Norton.

So how could he have been shot ? just because he was in his 30's doesn't mean he was shot. He had some of his best performance's of his career between 77-79 which is when he fought Larry Holmes. And he was considered the favourite going into the 1st Larry Holmes fight.

Ken Norton was 34 but again just because he was in his 30's, doesn't mean he wasn't near enough at his best. Between when he fought Muhammad Ali 3rd time and Larry Holmes.

He had many good performances especially against Muhammad Ali, Duane Bobick. So going into the Larry Holmes fight he was on a very good run, and certainly was nowhere near past his best.

How could he be ? he fought amazing fight vs Larry Holmes, i thought Larry Holmes won more clearly than the scorecard's suggested. But he still fought an amazing fight in what should of been the FOTY.

Larry Holmes never fought anyone toe to toe, that wasn't his style unless he had to. He was a smarter fighter than Wladimir Klitschko, and had all the better attributes.

Larry Holmes's chin has been tested and he's passed the test, i don't see where your getting the idea that Wladimir Klitschko would stop Larry Holmes.

When has Wladimir Klitschko ever really tried to stop a top level fighter ? in a big unfication fight with Sultan Ibragimov he was happy to clinch and jab for 12 rounds in one of the worst Heavyweight unification fights of all time.

Im sorry but Larry Holmes would win the jab battle, and would eventually find his underrated right hand on Wladimir Klitschko's chin. And would stop Wladimir Klitschko in about 10 rounds.

....I hate to disagree iCB but if you look at the Wlad-Sultan fight (yes it was poor) but you see SULTAN doing the holding and the running and leaning waaaaay over to his left and crouching down low to make himself a small target and hoping to uncork a Hail Mary counter left when Wlad unloaded the right cross (one of the reasons he didn't throw it much). Wlad had 1 chance of stopping Sultan (it was the 1 time he was still enough)...Wlad hit him, Sultan was held up by the ropes and then tried to tackle Wlad to avoid more punishment and the ref broke them up.


As for Cooney and Witherspoon, give me a break Holmes fought has beens and fighters that weren't ready to be tested like Renaldo Snipes (who knocked Lary down if I remember correctly). Shavers....freaking Earnie Shavers, huge power but a tiny little guy...Larry got lazy in that fight and had that punch landed about 10 seconds sooner Larry would have lost by TKO.

Larry was a great boxer who was given a bad era, poor competition....I don't hold it against him, but I don't think many boxing greats would feel "at ease" fighting a 6'6 245 pound boxer that can outpoint you and knock you cold. Not only is Wlad big and athletic...he's got very good hand eye coordination and he sticks to a gameplan pretty damn good. I haven't seen him really lose focus in any of his fights like Holmes and Lewis did...vs Brock when Wlad was cut, he went out and ended the fight, vs Peter when he got fouled repeatedly and knocked down due to those fouls he didn't complain to the ref he just fought through it and came out the winner.

I don't want to disrespect any of the fighters listed and of course these are all hypothetical and it's nice to think about, but as far as right now and who Wlad has fought, could fight, and will fight.....he's as dominant as you can get.

I dont like Wald but i starting feel have to back him because of hate he gets sometime. Ali have no idea how that would look for once he would not be the tallest guy or biggest. Foreman i think Older version would have a better shot then the younger one would. Holyfeild i go with him he was very skilled had one of the best chins in boxing history and was used to fighting giants. Holmes not to sure his era was shit just like this one was mean come on Cooney, Witherspoon were never that great. Also Norton didn't really do shit after the Holmes fight it was pretty much over for him. If i had to say who i would think would win i pretty much say its a 50 50 and be a pretty boring fucking fight as well.

Ken Norton has the perfect style for boxers. He is extreamly atletic and with this cross arm defence can block streight punches all day long! His only problem was that he didn't duck, but against boxers he is just perfect. He will give W hell of a night and most likely KO him because of better endurance!
Against Forman... Wlad isn't the one punch KO artist. I don't thing he can hurt Forman. If you can't hurt him he will just walk through you! W is to big and his stamina is bad because of that!
I don't want to take anything from W, but almost all his oponents were really non educated boxers with bad technique(the mexican punching bag type)... I don't see him against someone so accomplished like Louis. There he won't be able to clinch. In order to stop some how Louis not to go inside and unlish this short punches W must go really low. This means he wont be able to move. To use the right hand is almost impossible beacuase of the way Louis stands... It will be nice batering :)