Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Luis wasn't world champ then ;)
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
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Originally Posted by Taeth
Bowe/Holyfield
Aha! Good one ;)
Actually what am i talking about.
Holyfield was a great Cruiserweight :P
Nearly ::**
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I agree with you Jim Boogie, Ali's beating of Foreman was probably the only time a 'prime' heavyweight was defeated. However others could argue that Foreman hadn't fully developed his skills at that point becuase he was so used to knocking people out.
Ultimately it's a self fufilling prophecy, a fighter loses, there is ALWAYS a reason or excuse.
But imo Tyson was destoyed by Douglas in his prime. I mean how old was Tyson then? 26?
No way you could argue he was past it.
Yeah your right. Its becasue Tyson was blatantly under prepared/ motivated that is kinda distracting me from that fact that he WAS only infact 24!
Although (and yes i didn't make myself clear at all...) my argument only applies to the debate of 'great' heavyweights and their 'great' victories.
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Luis wasn't world champ then ;)
I know, but he was still a 'Great' and he was in his prime.
If the world champion was always the best fighter in the world, then there would never be new world champions - plus, I belive that you are either 'great' or you are not .... people don't suddenly become great, the fact that they are 'great' only becomes slowly revealed to us?
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Schmeling-Louis 1 is a great choice X.
Schmeling-Louis II
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Luis wasn't world champ then ;)
Who the hell is LUIS??? ;D
Ali-Frazier all 3 of them
Ali-Foreman
Foreman-Frazier
Bowe-Holyfield 1-3
Lewis-Holyfield 1-2
Louis-Walcott 1-2
It's so difficult because great fighters don't usually come in bunches in the same division but there are some examples out there.
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
How can Ali be past it,when he beats Foreman a year after Frazier beat him?
And how can Frazier be past it when Ali beats him a year after the Frazier fight?
:hypnotized:
Sorry, say that again ???
Just edited
If Foreman/Frazier was two greats in their prime
Ali beats Foreman 1 year after Frazier/Ali 1
So Frazier/Ali 1 would logically be two greats in their prime
And if Foreman/Frazier was two greats in their prime
Ali/Frazier 2 happened a year after it
You're confusing me, so let's get the chronology right, guys.
Ali-Frazier 1 - March 1971
Foreman-Frazier 1 - January 1973
Ali-Frazier 2 - January 1974
Ali-Foreman - October 1974 (not 1 year, but 3½ years after Ali-Frazier 1, and also after Ali-Frazier 2 had already taken place)
In Ali-Frazier 1 you had two greats, but only one, Frazier - the winner - in his prime. I think it's fair to describe Foreman-Frazier 1 as two greats in their prime (although it doesn't matter if Foreman wasn't as the requirement is that the loser is a great in their prime). However, some argue that Frazier's win over Ali took more out of the former than the latter, and he was never the same fighter again. Given the style of Foreman's win - a quick blitzing, as Frazier was just made for George - I think it's a moot point whether Frazier was still in his prime. Essentially, Foreman would have beaten a prime or sub-prime Frazier. Regarding Ali-Frazier 2, the question is still whether or not Frazier was prime following both a gruelling battle with Ali 3 years before and a devastating defeat a year earlier against Big George. Ali certainly wasn't prime, despite being the easy winner, but he didn't have to contend with a layoff unlike 3 years earlier (despite his two 1970 warmup fights). Honestly, I simply don't know if Frazier was still prime!
Regarding Ali-Foreman, I think it's safe to argue that Foreman was prime. Ali certainly wasn't, but the winner doesn't have to be, and the victory merely reinforced his own greatness and legend.
Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Chagaev beat Valuev in his prime. He was 46-0 and beat some world class opposition in that record and was in no way protected at all ever!
Also, Shannon Briggs, one of the all time greats of world heavyweight boxing was beaten convincingly by Sultan Ibragimov.
::** ;D ;D ;D
