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How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Ok I know you guys will tell me what a super slick operator he is, but what has he actually done? :confused:
He knocked out Darchinyan in a big upset, and since then Darchinyan (NOT Donaire) has gone to do great things picking up titles in two weight classes and scoring big wins over Mijares (another hugely overinflated fighter) and Arce.
Donaire has the win over Darchinyan on his record and nothing else.
He has beaten ONE world champion, thats it. And I'm not talking about reigning champs here either, I mean only ONE opponent had EVER held a world title.
How the fuck does that put him above Paul Williams 3 time world champ in two weight classes plus a dominating win over one of the modern greats in Winky Wright?
How does that put him above David Haye, the unified cruiserweight world champ, or Chad Dawson the undefeated light heavyweight king with wins over two weight and reigning cruiserweight champ Adamek, plus wins over former undisputed champs (I think) Antonio Tarver (twice) and Glen Johnson?
How about Mikkell Kessler, three time world champ, wins over reigning champ Anthony Mundine, defending champ Marcus Beyer etc.
Has there EVER been a fighter who defeated ONE world champ who wasn't even in the top 10 p4p at the time and has never even fought let alone beat another world champ (not reigning but world champ at anytime in their career) and yet still gets a top place?
It's so undeserving, Juan Manuel Lopez has done just as much.
If people want to tell me he's super skillful and slick and I know nothing, ok maybe he is, but what has he actually done?
I was the only hater of Christian Mijares on here when everybody was claiming he was an all time great in the making and nobody could see how overated he was, well I called it then and I'm calling it now.
Donaire has done nothing to deserve top 10 status let alone top 7.
In a year after he gets sparked by Fernano Montiel or somebody similar he will be another forgotten man.
Williams, Guzman, Kessler, Pavlik, Abraham, Haye, Dawson all have a case for inclusion above him.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
another great post from our underrated veteran.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.
Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.
Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...
- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...
- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...
- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...
- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...
That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.
Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.
Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.
Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?
He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.
And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.
Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
XaduBoxer
- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...
- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...
- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...
- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...
- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...
That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.
This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.
The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.
His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.
It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.
Glad you agree Josh. I have wanted to rep you for ages but I have to spread to everyone else first and frankly I don't want to rep anybody else.
I wish Saddo would put the old 24 or maybe even a 48 hour system in place rather than having to spread it.
It just means I have to spread rep about 8 meaningless times to give some to you.
There are no rep clubs any more so why the spread rule? Just bring back the delayed timer and set at 48 hours before rerepping Saddo, you know it makes sense bossman :)
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.
Glad you agree Josh. I have wanted to rep you for ages but I have to spread to everyone else first and frankly I don't want to rep anybody else.
I wish Saddo would put the old 24 or maybe even a 48 hour system in place rather than having to spread it.
It just means I have to spread rep about 8 meaningless times to give some to you.
There are no rep clubs any more so why the spread rule? Just bring back the delayed timer and set at 48 hours before rerepping Saddo, you know it makes sense bossman :)
We agree on that as well. I do not like having to rep a bunch of people for no other reason that to rep the person I want to.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.
Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.
Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.
Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?
He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.
And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.
Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.
You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?
Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.
Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.
Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.
A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Good post Xadu. I was gonna say similar thing. Donaire happens to be one of the most avoided boxer in the world. If you followed his career you will know that Mijares, Montiel, and top Japanese boxers avoided him.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
XaduBoxer
- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...
- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...
- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...
- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...
- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...
That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.
This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.
The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.
His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.
It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.
Good point I have had this conversation in other forms with a certain other small fighter (Vasquez) that is still ranked way to high in the p4p rankings.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Doesn't a fighters accomplishments after two guys fought influence the winner's resume?
Doesn't the Glen Johnson win look bigger for Hopkins now than five years ago? Zab Judah was at one time a real big win for Tsyzu, is it now?
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.
Agreed!
I don't think Donaire should be in the top 10 P4P but he's definitely a talented fighter. IMO he hasn't done enough in his career to get such a prestigious ranking. He beat one name, a good name though, but it's not enough to get that high. He has the talent to have that ranking but you need to prove it to actually have it.
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Re: How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.
Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.
Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.
Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?
He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.
And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.
Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.
You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?
Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.
Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.
Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.
A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.
I wasn't sure whether or not to include him, but he's a unified champion in a very good division. He's dominated and knocked out another undefeated belt holder (in his opponents hometown) and holds wins over Parra, Sithchat-whatever, and De Leon. IMO that's close to what Donaire has accomplished.