The Wilder Excuses Begin

[TitoFan]

We can continue the eternal merry-go-round. Those who want to believe the only deciding factor here is what Wilder has earned in the past, versus those who actually see that whatever purse the fight generates is going to be largely due to the fact that it's Joshua vs. Wilder, not Joshua vs. TBA. So Team Wilder has been shitty at promoting their fighter. Does that mean they're obliged to take scraps from Team Joshua?

Having said that, I have no problem with both Joshua and Wilder taking another fight before their showdown. Joshua can proceed with Povetkin... and Wilder can fight whoever Wilder is supposed to fight. Assuming they both win, which is by no means a given, then their own fight will be that much bigger..... and Hearn will probably bump up his offer to $13 million.

Yep.

Compelling counter. I'll call Wilder and give him the bad news.

Yeah, and when you call him, tell him to get his team to back him and put in a counter offer.

With your convincing counter argument, I'm sure they'll rush a counter offer right over.

If you read back at some of my posts on this thread, you’ll see I’ve written many words on the subject, but I’m trying not to be a “rinse and repeat” kind of guy, but each to their own I suppose.

Well... unlike you, I'm not a rabid fan of either one. It makes no difference to me. I'm just happy the division is worth talking about again. When Wlad was king I couldn't be bothered to talk about the HW division... it was boring as shit. I'll repeat what I've already said. Doesn't matter one way or the other if they decide to face other opponents before facing off. Joshua is the one making noise about wanting Wilder next. Joshua says that.... then his management makes a shit offer. Yes, a shit offer. That's my basic and unwavering point. What is the difficulty in talking percentages, especially if the final haul is such an unknown? It just gives the impression that Hearn wants to either cash out against Wilder... or he's really not interested in a clash at this time. Not a problem. Nobody would blame him for either.

Your reasons for defending Hearn start with the tired old argument that Joshua's fights have made a lot more money than Wilder's. Once again I'll say so what? Joshua is not up there by himself. It takes a credible opponent to help Joshua bring in the cash. Who cares what Wilder has or has not made in the past. It's a foolish argument. It's a bonafide heavyweight championship between two undefeated champions across the pond from each other. The U.K. vs. the U.S. It's not The Anthony Joshua Show, oh and by the way with guest star Deontay Wilder.

It's quite simple, really. Given that the final earnings are such an unknown, doesn't it make more sense to talk percentages than a flat fee? Joshua can say Wilder is worth 30%... and Wilder can counter that he's worth at least 40. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to discuss those numbers.

Again... not a Wilder fan. Just a fan of boxing, and grateful for the sudden fireworks in the HW division.

Just out of interest, as you keep saying - "It's not the Joshua show, he needs a credible opponent" and "who cares what Wilder made in the past."

How much do you think is fair for Joshua to expect? Bear in mind he made $30+ million for Takam.

He made $30+ million for Takam, so he should expect the same if not more for Wilder? I think we're looking at it from different angles. You're on the side that believes it's Joshua's money first, and whatever's left over for Wilder. Who is Takam anyway? I'd venture to say probably 0.000001% of boxing fans in the U.S. knew of Takam before the Joshua fight, and now maybe that gets bumped up to 0.000002%. So if the split ended up being 90/10 (don't know what Takam made, but it couldn't have been much), then so be it. But IMO, you shouldn't use the $30+ million to move up from there. Whether you want to accept it or not, you're talking about two undefeated heavyweight champions from two huge rival countries across the Atlantic. Yeah, Parker was undefeated and a champion, but hardly anyone in the States knew about him either.

To answer your question, how much do I think is fair for Joshua to expect? I think 60% of the purse is not an unreasonable figure. If he can coerce Team Wilder into receiving lower than 40%, good for him. Talk in terms of dollars (or euros) and cents makes little sense, if we go by the premise that the purse could be anywhere from $50 million to $100 million. Support in the UK is a given. The big unknown in the equation is how much interest in the fight can and will be generated in the U.S. Another area where some of us don't agree is the thinking that Joshua deserves the overwhelming lion's share simply because most of the fan interest right now is from the UK. Again, who cares. It takes both of them to make the fight. Joshua fights a Takam, the guy should be happy with table scraps. He fights for all the belts in boxing's glamour division.... the opponent deserves to be treated better.

[Memphis]

The US money is an area where I just dont understand peoples thinking. As you've said, The Joshua money is pretty much set in stone for a UK fight. He will fill Wembley, he will get 1.5+ million UK PPV buys. But these numbers are for a UK based fight for a UK audience. The 100 million club just want to throw a million US PPV buys right on top of that. They want all of the money from all of the revenue streams all at the same time. It's just not possible is it?

Are the US Audience going to buy into a PPV event at 50 dollars a pop in the afternoon, that's going on in England, between two guys that aren't exactly setting the World alight in US TV land? If they do, to the tune of a million buys, then you're getting close to your 100 million dollar fight. If not, Showtimes monetary investment in the fight is going to be exactly the same as it was for Parker, the same as HBO are willing to offer. Peanuts.

[TitoFan]

The US money is an area where I just dont understand peoples thinking. As you've said, The Joshua money is pretty much set in stone for a UK fight. He will fill Wembley, he will get 1.5+ million UK PPV buys. But these numbers are for a UK based fight for a UK audience. The 100 million club just want to throw a million US PPV buys right on top of that. They want all of the money from all of the revenue streams all at the same time. It's just not possible is it?

Are the US Audience going to buy into a PPV event at 50 dollars a pop in the afternoon, that's going on in England, between two guys that aren't exactly setting the World alight in US TV land? If they do, to the tune of a million buys, then you're getting close to your 100 million dollar fight. If not, Showtimes monetary investment in the fight is going to be exactly the same as it was for Parker, the same as HBO are willing to offer. Peanuts.

I'm not arguing that it's a 100 million dollar fight. The time difference also has a lot to do with that, as you say. Be that as it may, the flat dollar offer was $12.5 million. Using $50 million as the yardstick, that still amounts to 25% of the proceeds. To me, that's rather insulting, not to mention greedy. Ok so supposedly Joshua made $30+ million for Takam (I'll take that at face value). So what. So basically he wants $30+ million for Wilder.... and screw Wilder, let him be happy with the $12.5 million? Team Wilder can do and accept whatever they want... it's not like I'M making any money off of it. But IMO, they should hold out for a better offer. While I'm at it, this obsession with Wilder having to make a counter offer is silly. It's a technicality, and an absurd one at that. Who cares whether it's a counter offer by Wilder, or a 2nd offer by Joshua. The end result is the same. Honestly, I've rarely seen such back-and-forths regarding negotiations that are still in progress...... and we're not even the ones fighting!

[Master]

True, we all want the fight made and do not particularly care how much they get. They have representatives who are paid to negotiate the best deal. I just hope the fight is made before Wilder loses.

[Fenster]

@TitoFan

I understand you think 60-40 split is fair, that Wilder is not just a bit part player, I get that. The problem I have understanding your logic is why does Wilder deserve a ginormous payrise yet Joshua gets his bog standard fee?

I honestly can't recall a single major fight in history where someone took a paycut/got their norm for a bigger, more dangerous fight.

[TitoFan]

@TitoFan

I understand you think 60-40 split is fair, that Wilder is not just a bit part player, I get that. The problem I have understanding your logic is why does Wilder deserve a ginormous payrise yet Joshua gets his bog standard fee?

I honestly can't recall a single major fight in history where someone took a paycut/got their norm for a bigger, more dangerous fight.

Ok, because as I said before, we're looking at it from different angles. You're looking at past earnings as a way to divvy up the pot. If that's the measure to be used, then yeah... I guess Wilder should just accept the $12.5 million and be grateful. I'm looking at the event and what each brings to the ring. Wilder might be a jerk (his "body" comment didn't endear him to many). Wilder might have begun his career with a bunch of tomato cans. Wilder might not be the rock star in the U.S. that Joshua is in the UK. Wilder might even have an ugly style in the ring.... some say he can't box, which I think is a bit unfair and exaggerated. But make no mistake about it. Wilder brings excitement to this potential matchup, as well as that X-factor. No matter what the "experts" think, it's not a given that Joshua is going to beat Wilder. This could be an ugly knockout for either.

So whereas you think of it as a "paycut" for Joshua, I think of it as a ginormous event that if promoted properly could very well surpass all previous Joshua fight purses. Hey who knows..... Wilder might even end up accepting a 65-35 split. But c'mon....... everybody knows Hearn basically threw a bone at a hungry dog and expected him to drool all over it.

[powerpuncher]

I’m hoping this doesn’t become one of those fights that marinated too long. This is the best time to do it. I am skeptical that either will do anything to make the fight more anticipated if they wait. It’s more likely one of them loses or even just looks awful. Right now is the time. I’ve seen fights happen past their best time too many times in boxing.

[Fenster]

Hearn's flat fee offer was for the media/public, he was calling Wilder's bluff, it was in responce to Wilder's claim that Joshua is ducking him, the idea that 12.5m would be accepted and these professional spiel merchants discuss their real business in public is ridiculous. So then Wilder's team claim it's a 100 million fight to make 12.5 look like chump change. So then Eddie/Joshua say make us an offer, knowing full well Wilder's team can't stage the fight, it really is the Anthony Joshua show, regardless of the factor Wilder brings, whether we like it or not.

However, what it does give us is some general ball park figures, which combined with past events means we have an idea of the numbers.

So with a 50 million pot, 40% means Wilder gets 20m to Joshua's 30m. Now that's fair enough, however, when put into perspective it means Joshua is getting nothing for the risk whereas Wilder is getting a huge, massive increase on anything he's ever earned before. So what is the first thing Joshua's manager is going to say? Err.. fuck off Eddie.

Wilder deserves the biggest payday he's ever had by miles, such is the magnitude of the fight, however, the very same applies to Joshua. Remember, $50 million, which Joshua said he'd gladly accept if Wilder produces the 100 million, is not even double Joshua's best purse.

[TitoFan]

Hearn's flat fee offer was for the media/public, he was calling Wilder's bluff, it was in responce to Wilder's claim that Joshua is ducking him, the idea that 12.5m would be accepted and these professional spiel merchants discuss their real business in public is ridiculous. So then Wilder's team claim it's a 100 million fight to make 12.5 look like chump change. So then Eddie/Joshua say make us an offer, knowing full well Wilder's team can't stage the fight, it really is the Anthony Joshua show, regardless of the factor Wilder brings, whether we like it or not.

However, what it does give us is some general ball park figures, which combined with past events means we have an idea of the numbers.

So with a 50 million pot, 40% means Wilder gets 20m to Joshua's 30m. Now that's fair enough, however, when put into perspective it means Joshua is getting nothing for the risk whereas Wilder is getting a huge, massive increase on anything he's ever earned before. So what is the first thing Joshua's manager is going to say? Err.. fuck off Eddie.

Wilder deserves the biggest payday he's ever had by miles, such is the magnitude of the fight, however, the very same applies to Joshua. Remember, $50 million, which Joshua said he'd gladly accept if Wilder produces the 100 million, is not even double Joshua's best purse.

Your opening assessment seems plausible enough. My only issue is your saying that Joshua gets "nothing" for the risk. Actually, two issues with that. We're so jaded as fans to the millions earned by fighters nowadays that we can actually and flippantly call $30 million nothing. Hmmm... Second, you mention the risk. Isn't Team Joshua confident in their man? This seems almost like "let's get all the money we can, in case we get KTFO'ed and never get here again." I know that's not the case, but then again...

I'm leaning away from the $100 million claim, mostly because the time difference, were the fight to be held in the UK, is going to make it rather impossible to generate significant PPV revenue in the States. So going with the $50 million for argument's sake. It may get down to splitting hairs. Maybe 60/40 isn't enough for Joshua and too much for Wilder. So hopefully they'll work their way down from there. What I think is unreasonable and probably will not be accepted by Wilder is the premise that, because Joshua fans feel AJ needs a hefty raise, and the pot is foreseeably $50 million, then Wilder's take approaches that 25% neighborhood.

[Fenster]

I'm speaking purely from the respected parties perspective not mine "Nothing" - as in he wouldn't be getting an advance on previous purses, I was playing his manager to try to clarify the situation.

Personally I couldn't give a flying funk what either make, they mean not a jot to me. In fact I find it ridiculous that fans argue about what fighters "deserve" or use dough as a measuring stick for achievements. They can get a billion dollars or zilch for all I care. Means nothing.

I agree fully that fans are so blase when discussing millions of dollars it's ridiculous, that's been the whole point of my involvement in this topic. 100 million that nobody can account for. 12.5 million chump change. Millions of PPV buys for a guy that's not PPV.

[Batman]

This fight is getting more posts than it would if it was a done deal

[Spicoli]

Lets be honest the major reason we'll tune into Wilder v Breazeale is to see if he can do better than AJ did in knocking him out. Talk about low hanging fruit.

[Alpha]

True, we all want the fight made and do not particularly care how much they get. They have representatives who are paid to negotiate the best deal. I just hope the fight is made before Wilder loses.

Or AJ, a win over Povetkin is no sure thing.

[Master]

True, we all want the fight made and do not particularly care how much they get. They have representatives who are paid to negotiate the best deal. I just hope the fight is made before Wilder loses.

Or AJ, a win over Povetkin is no sure thing.

You said the same thing about Parker. AJ beats Povetkin just as easily.

[Alpha]

True, we all want the fight made and do not particularly care how much they get. They have representatives who are paid to negotiate the best deal. I just hope the fight is made before Wilder loses.

Or AJ, a win over Povetkin is no sure thing.

You said the same thing about Parker. AJ beats Povetkin just as easily.

So AJ is invincible now? Anything can happen in a fight, especially with heavyweights, but I never once thought AJ would lose, barring something bizarre happening.

Povetkin, even this old version is a much tougher fight, styles make fights. Look back at my posts about Parker before the fight, I kept saying he needs to stop going backwards, backing up to the ropes and corners. When he stood his ground and lead he had success in that fight. Povetkin will be much more aggressive.