Progression in teaching

[FacePuncher]

Do you use a progression system when teaching a new boxer?

A lot of trainers I know do the whole footwork-guard-slipping-punching progression, but I've also met trainers who just chuck a kid on pads and correct things as they go.

What do you do? How were you taught?

[marbleheadmaui]

Without a progessive regimen I have no idea how ANYONE can gain an understanding of what they are doing. Without a firm grounding? How the heck can a kid figure out what's next when he's struggling in the ring?

BTW, the mitts are an awful place to start (and vastly overused today in any case). Nobody holding mitts can judge footwork among other things or teach distance. How the hell does one teach distance when he insures the punches land on the mitts?

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Great question

I agree with marbleheadmaui. Boxing, as with many other things, is a sport that may be broken down to it's core components. When you sub-divide the sport into 4 areas; footwork, body movement, defensive actions and punches, each of these areas may break-down further into individual skills. At the current count I can demonstrate 41 individual skills...not including body punches. This is a lot of learning! If you have any doubts about this, check out my site Learn How to Box with MyBoxingCoach on which you can find video descriptions of each skill.

So, you can demonstrate an individual skill to a boxer, and each skill can then be practised in the form of a drill (the ultimate learning method). My focus when working with a new boxer is always very structured:

• Establish an effective stance
• Learn how to move in and out
• learn how to jab
• learn how to throw a straight back hand.

From here, you can gradually layer skill upon skill, resulting in a gradual build up of capability. Boxing drills provide the foundation for all of this, with what is learned there being reinforced in other activites such as shadow boxing and bag work. The word 'gradual' is key. The majority of boxers that I have worked with over the last couple of decades have taken at least 6 to 9 months before I would be confident for them to compete. There are exceptions, but not too many.

Just to pick up on another point that marbleheadmaui made regarding pads. Pads are a really effective coaching technique, but they are used incorrectly by so many. The biggest frustration that I see is a coach 'slapping' the incoming punch with the pad. Now, I've only been in boxing for 30+ years, but very rarely in that time have I encountered a boxer, or even witnessed a boxer, repeatedly slamming their face into an oncoming fist. So why would we as coaches recreate a situation that simply never occurs, and recreate it with such breathless enthusiasm?

OK rant over.

Hope this has helped, and that's a really smart and insightful question by the way.

Fran

[FacePuncher]

Thanks a lot for the replies! Interesting thoughts.

[greynotsoold]

I am a big believer in proper punching technique; throwing punches correctly, with impact, and without walking with them. I think that once that is ingrained, everything else is so much easier to get right. I think it is much easier to teach somebody to move their feedt properly if they already understand how their foot placement and weight distribution affects each and every punch. Same thing with defense- first because throwing punches properly goes a long way to protecting yourself from counters, and mostly, because it is easier to teach somebody to slip and counter when they can feel how a proper slip is the same move as a punch. For example, slipping the jab over the right shoulder and throwing a straight right to the body, or slipping the jab over the left shoulder and throwing a left hook.
The punch mitts aren't used properly in about 95% of the cases that I have observed, in my opinion. I've watched some guys that are thought to be good trainers and thought that what they were doing was flat out stupid: an example would be the guy that trained Botha for the Lewis fight. In general I think that most make the mistake of working too far away from their bodies- hold their hands out too far- and thus the boxer doesn't get a feel of where he needs to be, where and how he needs to move his feet to be in effective range to land the punches he throws.
A trainer working the mitts can most certainly judge footwork if he is sensitive to what is going on in the ring, and how things move, what moves are being made. You should be able to see where your boxer is in the ring and how he is moving, just as you would if you were boxing against him. And you can feel it in the punches.

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

I've watched some guys that are thought to be good trainers and thought that what they were doing was flat out stupid: an example would be the guy that trained Botha for the Lewis fight. In general I think that most make the mistake of working too far away from their bodies- hold their hands out too far- and thus the boxer doesn't get a feel of where he needs to be, where and how he needs to move his feet to be in effective range to land the punches he throws.
A trainer working the mitts can most certainly judge footwork if he is sensitive to what is going on in the ring, and how things move, what moves are being made. You should be able to see where your boxer is in the ring and how he is moving, just as you would if you were boxing against him. And you can feel it in the punches.

Very smart observation. In a similar vein, holding the two pads too far apart is another annoying trait, unless of course the boxer is being prepared to face an opponent with a head that's 2 foot wide.

[marbleheadmaui]

Great question

I agree with marbleheadmaui. Boxing, as with many other things, is a sport that may be broken down to it's core components. When you sub-divide the sport into 4 areas; footwork, body movement, defensive actions and punches, each of these areas may break-down further into individual skills. At the current count I can demonstrate 41 individual skills...not including body punches. This is a lot of learning! If you have any doubts about this, check out my site Learn How to Box with MyBoxingCoach on which you can find video descriptions of each skill.

So, you can demonstrate an individual skill to a boxer, and each skill can then be practised in the form of a drill (the ultimate learning method). My focus when working with a new boxer is always very structured:

• Establish an effective stance
• Learn how to move in and out
• learn how to jab
• learn how to throw a straight back hand.

From here, you can gradually layer skill upon skill, resulting in a gradual build up of capability. Boxing drills provide the foundation for all of this, with what is learned there being reinforced in other activites such as shadow boxing and bag work. The word 'gradual' is key. The majority of boxers that I have worked with over the last couple of decades have taken at least 6 to 9 months before I would be confident for them to compete. There are exceptions, but not too many.

Just to pick up on another point that marbleheadmaui made regarding pads. Pads are a really effective coaching technique, but they are used incorrectly by so many. The biggest frustration that I see is a coach 'slapping' the incoming punch with the pad. Now, I've only been in boxing for 30+ years, but very rarely in that time have I encountered a boxer, or even witnessed a boxer, repeatedly slamming their face into an oncoming fist. So why would we as coaches recreate a situation that simply never occurs, and recreate it with such breathless enthusiasm?
OK rant over.

Hope this has helped, and that's a really smart and insightful question by the way.

Fran

Great post! Thanks!

The problem with pads is they can be so much damned fun.

[Boxy]

After reading all of these posts I just feel very silly/stupid/dumbstruck.
Maybe this is just me being a kickboxer so my training's a bit different but we never work by one skill but try to hone all in at once by a great deal of practicing specific combinations while simulating real ring time; we each practice for three minutes, we're free to move, block, dodge or take whatever action is deemed appropriate (like moving in on a high kick to keep it's force under check or re-directing a knee strick while clinching), of course all of this is true so long as the trainer doesn't tell us otherwise, sometimes he puts limitations such as you must redirect the blow or you must prevent him from finishing his combo by doing this or not doing that.
And to finish off we do around five three minutes rounds of free sparing ,kickboxers can do whatever they want so long as it's within the rules but are limited to hands only when fighting a boxer, though most of us take boxing lessons just to improve our hand/footwork and to compliment some other skills such as bobing & weathing and dodging blows.
I'd like to say we have good trainers as they have both the titles and the trainees to prove their worth (to the best of my knowledge nearly every pupil under my trainer that had entered a contest has won or taken second place) but you guys make them sound like they have no clue as to what they're doing.

[Scrap]

So Boxy, what are you saying

[Howlin Mad Missy]

After reading all of these posts I just feel very silly/stupid/dumbstruck.
Maybe this is just me being a kickboxer so my training's a bit different but we never work by one skill but try to hone all in at once by a great deal of practicing specific combinations while simulating real ring time; we each practice for three minutes, we're free to move, block, dodge or take whatever action is deemed appropriate (like moving in on a high kick to keep it's force under check or re-directing a knee strick while clinching), of course all of this is true so long as the trainer doesn't tell us otherwise, sometimes he puts limitations such as you must redirect the blow or you must prevent him from finishing his combo by doing this or not doing that.
And to finish off we do around five three minutes rounds of free sparing ,kickboxers can do whatever they want so long as it's within the rules but are limited to hands only when fighting a boxer, though most of us take boxing lessons just to improve our hand/footwork and to compliment some other skills such as bobing & weathing and dodging blows.
I'd like to say we have good trainers as they have both the titles and the trainees to prove their worth (to the best of my knowledge nearly every pupil under my trainer that had entered a contest has won or taken second place) but you guys make them sound like they have no clue as to what they're doing.

I'm guessing that wasn't all on your first day?

[Boxy]

acctually that's what every day looks like.
I posted a thread about what a regular day at my gym looks like, but everybody seems to be to shy as to tell how does a day at their gym look like, so I have very little to compare myself to.
here's a link:
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ooks-like.html

Scrap
I guess what I'm saying is, does it sound any good to you that my trainer does things so differently than the way you guys do it? Doing everything at once rather than going at them one at a time. (somehow this reminds me of trying to read a book, a page of every chapter at a time rather than reading them in order)

[Howlin Mad Missy]

No. You first need to learn that it's a book and what that means, you need to learn the alphabet, the structure of language, punctuation, the meaning of the words, that in our language you read from left to right etc.

You get the point? You don't throw a copy of Great Expectations at a baby and expect it to understand.

As for your gym/trainer they may be right they may be wrong, successful gyms or those with good publicity will draw attention & students to it, maybe they're sucessful just because lots of people train there and they can pick out the talent.

[Scrap]

Boxy, do lots of strange things, for progression. For the person watching its sometimes strange and the connection is missed a lot. I work on the Biomechanics of exercise, Training Nuerons to adapt. By different methods to attain neuromuscular excellence. Whether it be by a kind of plyometrics Ive developed or proprerecetive techniques which are novel. Also do extensive work with elastic and woodys, plus fitballs all different shapes and sizes. I always say I teach the Kids, but more importantly the Kids are Teaching Me.

[Youngblood]

God I love Scraps humility. He's only now getting around to be able to write on the internet and be clearly understood, but to those of us who know him, he has more knowledge in his pinky finger then most of the rest of all of us put together.


You the best Scrap.

[badr_hari]

God I love Scraps humility. He's only now getting around to be able to write on the internet and be clearly understood, but to those of us who know him, he has more knowledge in his pinky finger then most of the rest of all of us put together.


You the best Scrap.

Totally agree. I don't even know who he is, but his posts are always great helpful informations. We should open a thread for Scrap's boxing tips, so when he has free time he can give us one.