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Thread: What's next for Cotto

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by DavilaJones View Post
    I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.

    I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
    Number of Title defenses
    Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
    Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.

    If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.
    I just don't see any reason to have a strict criteria for entry, especially given how little the alphabet belts mean in themselves. Who do you think you are. Cotto has been a face of boxing and given us fans very memorable fights against the best opponents he could've possibly faced over his career. Who aside from Mayweather, Hopkins or Pacquiao is more deserving over the past decade alone? Maybe Wlad? How many weight classes or legitimate champions has he conquered?

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by DavilaJones View Post
    I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.

    I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
    Number of Title defenses
    Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
    Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.

    If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.

    Again, HOF-worthiness is a matter of opinion, and you're certainly entitled to yours. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with having a higher standard for the HOF than the HOF folks themselves, as you say. As long as it's even-handed across the board. If Cotto isn't worthy in your eyes, then in my mind that also excludes a lot of other fighters from our generation, with the exceptions of Floyd and Pac. My own standards aren't as high as yours, so I happen to think that Cotto definitely belongs there.

    Now about your criteria... I got no issue with the first one. Number of title defenses certainly has to be among the criteria for HOF induction. But number of weight classes? Why? Does that mean you have to travel through several weight divisions to be considered? Where does that leave old timers like Carlos Monzon, who fought his entire career at middleweight? How about Ricardo "Finito" Lopez, who finished undefeated and never left his weight division? How about the heavyweights, who only fight at heavyweight? This makes no sense, unless I misunderstood your meaning. Same goes for number of champions dethroned, because this goes hand in hand with the # of weight divisions.

    Rather than those, I'd include stuff like quality of opponents. This cannot be ignored. Either by won-loss records or other criteria, the quality of the opponents you face HAS to have tremendous bearing on HOF-worthiness. Quality of wins is another. It's not the same thing to eke out controversial split decisions, or win by DQ, than to win by convincing decision or KO. Also, longevity and/or number of wins. You can't compare a champion who has defended his title for 10 years to one who's only had a couple of title defenses.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.

    Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.

    You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.
    3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by p4pking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DavilaJones View Post
    I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding I have total utter respect for Cotto and the fact that he ducked no one and had a solid career but my standards for HOF is higher than sadly even the HOF folks. Kostya Tszyu as first bout HOFer? I just can't wrap my head around that one.

    I'll give you my criteria and do feel free to critique it.
    Number of Title defenses
    Number of weight classes in which he was 'the man' of the division, i.e. lineal champion
    Number of legitimate (not paper champs) champions dethroned.

    If on average his number is greater than someone else in a comparable division then I’d consider him a first ballot HoFer for that time period.
    I just don't see any reason to have a strict criteria for entry, especially given how little the alphabet belts mean in themselves. Who do you think you are. Cotto has been a face of boxing and given us fans very memorable fights against the best opponents he could've possibly faced over his career. Who aside from Mayweather, Hopkins or Pacquiao is more deserving over the past decade alone? Maybe Wlad? How many weight classes or legitimate champions has he conquered?

    This time you beat me to the point.


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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.

    Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.

    You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.

    This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.


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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.

    Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.

    You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.

    This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.

    Cotto fought a level fight for two rounds, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 3rd, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 4th, then fought the rest of the fight completely on the defensive trying to survive, before finally being saved from the torture.

    Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto. He did well in both fights.

    No excuses needed. Fact.
    3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.

    Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.

    You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.

    This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.

    Cotto fought a level fight for two rounds, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 3rd, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 4th, then fought the rest of the fight completely on the defensive trying to survive, before finally being saved from the torture.

    Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto. He did well in both fights.

    No excuses needed. Fact.

    No excuses given. It's ok to speculate how Cotto would've done against Pacquiao with a trainer like Pedro Diaz in his corner and a gameplan like he had last night for Floyd. And from my point of view, last night was hardly "Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto." But you're completely biased, and never accept defeat.

    Fact.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Cotto abandoned his fight plan against Pac because he got the fuck beat out of him by a superior fighter. Simple as.

    Cotto is a great fighter that put up a great performance against Floyd.

    You can give him huge credit without making silly excuses for his previous defeats. Lets keep it real.

    This makes no sense. I'd say that he "got the fuck beat out of him" BECAUSE he abandoned his fight plan, not the other way around. And since when can't we speculate on how fighter "X" would've done in a fight under other circumstances? Oh yeah, right..... 'cause it's Cotto, the fighter you love to hate.

    Cotto fought a level fight for two rounds, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 3rd, got seriously hurt and knocked down in the 4th, then fought the rest of the fight completely on the defensive trying to survive, before finally being saved from the torture.

    Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto. He did well in both fights.

    No excuses needed. Fact.

    No excuses given. It's ok to speculate how Cotto would've done against Pacquiao with a trainer like Pedro Diaz in his corner and a gameplan like he had last night for Floyd. And from my point of view, last night was hardly "Floyd boxed the shit out of Cotto." But you're completely biased, and never accept defeat.

    Fact.
    That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How can I be "defeated" if I'm not even competing? I've simply stated how events played out.

    Pac beat the shit out of Cotto. Fact.
    Floyd beat a UD into Cotto. Fact.

    You are 100% entitled to speculate on what might have happened. I'm just stating what factually happened. Nothing more, nothing less.
    3-Time SADDO PREDICTION COMP CHAMPION.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    yeah cotto was brilliant last night, he did really push floyd but floyd just picked up the pace in the exchanges which was really good to see. Cotto landed some good shots too, but mayweather is just too slick for anybody, i really dont see who can beat him at the momment. I hope he doesnt retire, it was good to see him performing like that, peole are saying hes ageing, but i just think he was enjoying trading with Cotto to give the fans a good show.

    as for cotto , i think he can take credit for that performance, he pushed mayweather and tried his best, floyds nose was pretty bad and cotto won rounds with his pressure. I think cotto needs to fight alvarez or kirkland, i would love to see alvarez-cotto, i think alvarez is ready to step it up again, i was impressed with him and mosley last night, that would be great experience for him. I think this fight needs to happen, if cotto carrys on he needs this fight or a fight with kirland, both are exciting fights and make sense for this stage of cottos career.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    First and foremost I must repeat that I have the utmost respect for him and if he is in fact inducted as a first ballot for HOF I would be along the rest to congratulate him on a long successful career.
    But here’s my point, there must be a difference between someone who’s a great boxer to someone who’s phenomenal. Compare Hatton at lightweight to Mosley and I hope you that you must agree that there’s a difference of caliber, or Ezzard Charles to Mike Tyson or Vitali Klitschko (and I am an avid big bro fan, not at all little bro.)

    The reason I included the multiple weight is that these days a large portion of boxers move up in weight classes, that’s why we have situations in which a fighter is a champion in at least 3 divisions, something that was truly difficult back in the 'golden era' of boxing due to the lack of jr and super of most divisions.

    That being said a fighter does not need to meet all parts of it, for example a heavy weight can't possibly move up in weight and he can't beat many other champs since he is the man, so in that regard only title defense and quality of opposition matters.

    For fighter who never his division then it is entirely dependent on title defenses and the quality of opponents, I regret my foresight for not including in that one earlier but I agree that is very important.

    I'll admit I wrote this in haste and could have worded for less ambiguity. However as an example Sergio Martinez does not have an alphabet belt I believe but we all consider him the man to beat in the Middleweight division.

    As for quality of wins, I believe my statement in regards to beating 'the man of the division' would qualify as that but you have worded it much better than I have.

    All that said and done with my poor wording set aside, I’m trying to say that there must be a gap that sets the legendary apart from the damn good. The Legendary fighter should be a Hall of Famer because he truly is set apart from the rest. To me as a reward to their greatneess they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

    To me Cotto is the Carl Froch of the lighter divisions, an excellent fighter, a true gentleman, an ambassador of the sport but as good as he is and he is damn good he’s not phenomenal.

    I know this sounds somewhat hostile and I’m doing my best not to sound that way because its not how I feel but watch a Roy fight or, a Duran one and ask yourself does Cotto, in terms of god given ability or craft, match up evenly with these two or any other great?

    And yes this is just merely my opinion of a sport that is entirely subjective and as always I do welcome discourse and criticism.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    What's next for Cotto? The fight went as expected with Floyd, he was clearly beaten and it was a wide decision. That's not to say that Cotto fought a bad fight, he didn't, he fought very well, but Mayweather was in superb form again and Cotto just couldn't hit him enough.
    Cotto had to assert himself in the first 4 rounds and in reality the fight was over by round 4 with Mayweather brilliantly boxing Cotto's ears off.

    Cotto should fight Alvarez or Chavez jr next, maybe then go up and take on Martinez?

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Well hof is pretty low standard seeing some of the people in it Cotto is on that level. But atg i dont think he is even close to that really. His best wins could of gone either way Clotty who is really just a contender. Mosely was a good win but he was always hot and cold and was 36 years of age as well and that fight i think should of been a draw anyhow. His loses to the top were pretty clear pac knocked him out and Floyde won by a pretty good margin it was a tough fight but i thought Cotto was going down in the 12.

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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Cotto has lost three times. But this one is the only one for which I would say "no excuses". Not trying to be difficult here, but everyone knows the story with the other two losses. With Margarito, Cotto lost to a cheater against whom who knows how much irreparable damage Cotto suffered. F*ck Margarito for that. I'm glad he's a nobody now... and I'm glad Cotto got his revenge and then stared at him like the piece of sh*t he is. Against Pacquiao, I'm gonna stick to my guns and insist that Cotto had no corner. None. Joe "WTF" Santiago had no clue as to how to prepare Cotto for that fight. And even then, Miguel arguably won the first two rounds by outjabbing Pacquaio and snapping his head back repeatedly. But he decided to trade too soon, and got caught cold. Last night's Cotto wouldn't make the same mistake, and would've been a lot more prepared to fight Pac. I don't put too much stock into the catch weight issue... or the PED's issue. But some people do. The suspiciousness regarding the PEDs has never completely gone away. But I won't go that route.

    Last night's loss? That was fair and square. A tip-top conditioned Cotto, fighting at his weight. He just lost to the better fighter. But it was by no means a blowout... as some of the haters that are now just coming out of the woodwork would want us to believe. It was a hotly contested fight, where Floyd was tested more than he's been tested in a very, very long time. Ortiz didn't test him. Hatton didn't test him. Marquez didn't test him. Cotto tested him.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    Quote Originally Posted by DavilaJones View Post
    First and foremost I must repeat that I have the utmost respect for him and if he is in fact inducted as a first ballot for HOF I would be along the rest to congratulate him on a long successful career.
    But here’s my point, there must be a difference between someone who’s a great boxer to someone who’s phenomenal. Compare Hatton at lightweight to Mosley and I hope you that you must agree that there’s a difference of caliber, or Ezzard Charles to Mike Tyson or Vitali Klitschko (and I am an avid big bro fan, not at all little bro.)

    The reason I included the multiple weight is that these days a large portion of boxers move up in weight classes, that’s why we have situations in which a fighter is a champion in at least 3 divisions, something that was truly difficult back in the 'golden era' of boxing due to the lack of jr and super of most divisions.

    That being said a fighter does not need to meet all parts of it, for example a heavy weight can't possibly move up in weight and he can't beat many other champs since he is the man, so in that regard only title defense and quality of opposition matters.

    For fighter who never his division then it is entirely dependent on title defenses and the quality of opponents, I regret my foresight for not including in that one earlier but I agree that is very important.

    I'll admit I wrote this in haste and could have worded for less ambiguity. However as an example Sergio Martinez does not have an alphabet belt I believe but we all consider him the man to beat in the Middleweight division.

    As for quality of wins, I believe my statement in regards to beating 'the man of the division' would qualify as that but you have worded it much better than I have.

    All that said and done with my poor wording set aside, I’m trying to say that there must be a gap that sets the legendary apart from the damn good. The Legendary fighter should be a Hall of Famer because he truly is set apart from the rest. To me as a reward to their greatneess they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

    To me Cotto is the Carl Froch of the lighter divisions, an excellent fighter, a true gentleman, an ambassador of the sport but as good as he is and he is damn good he’s not phenomenal.

    I know this sounds somewhat hostile and I’m doing my best not to sound that way because its not how I feel but watch a Roy fight or, a Duran one and ask yourself does Cotto, in terms of god given ability or craft, match up evenly with these two or any other great?

    And yes this is just merely my opinion of a sport that is entirely subjective and as always I do welcome discourse and criticism.
    The statement about Carl Froch is really close, but in all honesty, pound for pound I think Cotto is a better boxer and has more talent, not just a little but alot more. However, in relation to the rest of the competition in their weight classes and opposition they have faced, Cotto is the Froch of his division.
    Last edited by Onix; 05-07-2012 at 02:06 AM.
    The key is Self-discipline.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: What's next for Cotto

    It's time for Cotto to go with the young pups and see if he still has what it takes. Alvarez is a good choice.

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