Czyz, Mancini, Pazienza, Gamache, Van Horn

[mikeeod]

Not sure how many older fans are on here, but for those who watched back in the 80s/90s, how would you classify/categorize those in the title (great white hype, overachiever, lucky clubfighter...etc.)? Also, how do you rank them against each other?

[Master]

This is all from memory and not checking.

Remember Bobby Czyz is a classic against Charles Williams where he knocked down and hurt Williams who came back to stop Bobby. Also remember Czyz quitting against Holyfield saying he had something in his eye.

Mancini I think on some come back so never saw the best of him but have watched old ESPN classics and he was an exciting fighter pushed by TV.

Joey Gamache less of a fighter than Mancini.

Daryl Van Horn was another white shining prospect who got battered and by Barkclay in 2 rounds. Iran said he could beat Van Horn even if he was drunk.

[Dark Lord Al]

Bobby had some exciting fights , Gamache was padded out media product who was beheaded by gatti.
Paz had his best win over Gilbert Dele at lmw.
Van horn beat Robert Hines , who had beat Matt Hilton, Horn did well for the tools he had , he was in turn beheaded by The Blade.

[mikeeod]

A big question I have, and this is coming from a white guy, is if any of these guys would have been nearly as famous/successful or had the opportunities they did if they were a different race. I feel like Czyz and Mancini would have, Paz is a maybe, and Gamache/Van Horn a definite no. I can remember Paz stating that stablemates Holyfield, Whitaker, and Taylor were jealous of him because he had a bigger fan base and better promoted/more well known than they were.

Two thoughts on that statement from Paz: He had to be other level delusional and narcissistic to truly believe that. And second: if it had any semblance of truth to it at all, what the hell were fans thinking It's still crazy to me that Paz had a movie made about his life, so maybe there was some truth to his statement after all....

[Master]

Forgot about Pazienza his great win was also Dana Rosenblatt who was undefeated and beating him at the time.

Herol Graham beat him, have to get that in.

Yes race would have been a factor but I doubt Holyfield and Sweat Pea would be jealous of it.

[Spicoli]

If anything Pazienza greatly benefited from exactly who he was and he's right, the big dogs on 84' team were far more promoted and in the know because frankly they were much better fighters and well..Olympic medalists. Pazienza had more careers than a cat has lives and rode a wave of charisma and a fiery personality with a huge hometown fan base that followed him. Big heart, fast hands and a huge gift for gab that really helped push him into the spotlight. He wasn't without solid skills, more so at lightweight, but when you think Paz you think attitude. Pounding his chest sticking his tongue out and a bull rush forward while loading up. Great rivalries with Haugen that really got nasty to the point of Haugen saying some Pazienza goons roughed him up pre first (?) or second fight. Duran rivalry pushed him into being complete mismatch with Roy and after that started over again with Rossenblatt rivalry and wars at home with multiple decent opponents. He was very much a fan friendly fighter and a down to Earth guy but to me his style ran even with the substance, then again he's having movies made about him not me so he definitely maxed out a respectable career.

Gamache was just a nice kid who like Paz rode a big fan base and achieved the best that could be expected all things considered. Wasn't explosive but had some hands and could box. Unfortunate from what I remember that's where it ends. They shipped in Tony Lopez thinking him an old man and Gamache was dismantled, shortly followed by Gussie Nazarov in a very very brutal beat down. After that he seemed to balloon and ran off some wins to get Chavez fight where he fought his heart out no questions asked but for his style and build Gamache did not belong at welter. Always came across as a good guy from what I saw.

I think Van Horn might have been a better boxer than both really. But again a guy who achieved exactly what he could with what he had. His boogeyman was Rosi in some pretty dull fights but he excelled by jumping two divisions and claiming a title at 168 from Holmes. He said he had a hand fracture prior to Barkley fight but he looked like a kitten crossing a highway prior to the bell. Barkley was brought in as a near blind man thought to be shot up but he brutalized Van Horn who had never faced anything that fierce, let alone a NY crowd like that. From Lexington to New York can seem a lifetime. The best thing that happened to him is what did not happen and that was proposed fights at 168 with Nigel Benn and Toney. That would have ended badly. There was mention of him having headaches and even failing a bran scan and thankfully fights didn't happen. He went out winning after on his own terms and all in all had a good career.

[Fenster]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport.

Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.

Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?

Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

[Hulk]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

[Spicoli]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

Like to see Caleb develop a mean streak and press his leads, top notch skills to build on though.

Fair to say Morrison was much more 'great white hype' than all 4 in thread title? Only one I'd come close to thinking a 'club fighter-over achiever' may be Paz. Rest were well rounded.

speaking of Paz apparently he went ballistic and beat the ever loving crap out of some guy on New Years
http://wpri.com/2018/01/03/wanted-fo...ns-himself-in/

[Hulk]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

Like to see Caleb develop a mean streak and press his leads, top notch skills to build on though.Fair to say Morrison was much more 'great white hype' than all 4 in thread title? Only one I'd come close to thinking a 'club fighter-over achiever' may be Paz. Rest were well rounded. speaking of Paz apparently he went ballistic and beat the ever loving crap out of some guy on New Years http://wpri.com/2018/01/03/wanted-fo...ns-himself-in/

#Metoo and I think Plant will against Medina, who really brings it. Paz had real talent and world class heart. Legendary heart. Much better than an overachieving club fighter I feel.Morrison was very good in his prime and hit extremely hard with that left hook. Razor and Foreman are quality wins. Better than anyone Wilder has defeated n better than everyone Joshua has beaten save Klitschko.Saw that about Paz beating up his friend for stealing from him. He’s a fiery guy lol

[Spicoli]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

Like to see Caleb develop a mean streak and press his leads, top notch skills to build on though.Fair to say Morrison was much more 'great white hype' than all 4 in thread title? Only one I'd come close to thinking a 'club fighter-over achiever' may be Paz. Rest were well rounded. speaking of Paz apparently he went ballistic and beat the ever loving crap out of some guy on New Years http://wpri.com/2018/01/03/wanted-fo...ns-himself-in/

#Metoo and I think Plant will against Medina, who really brings it. Paz had real talent and world class heart. Legendary heart. Much better than an overachieving club fighter I feel.Morrison was very good in his prime and hit extremely hard with that left hook. Razor and Foreman are quality wins. Better than anyone Wilder has defeated n better than everyone Joshua has beaten save Klitschko.Saw that about Paz beating up his friend for stealing from him. He’s a fiery guy lol

Agreed on heart, one thing you could never question about Pazienza. The guy was as determined and passionate as they come.

Morrison was one that I've reversed on over time. When he was coming up I think it was the incessant push and hype that turned me off. Arum and Cayton definitely played him up being a white dude with an actual shot at heavyweight success. Hype to the point of Stallone casting for Rocky and espn filming his 20th fight, the phony name ring attire and Sly 'working' the corner for future film footage. Regardless of early over hype Morrison very much proved his heart and punch later on. He also imo never gets credit for changing up and fighting smart vs Foreman, solid boxing learned over time. Loved the war with Joe Hipp too. One with a broken jaw and busted hand, the other with a shattered cheekbone and a face turned to raw hamburger. Awesome fight.

[Hulk]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

Like to see Caleb develop a mean streak and press his leads, top notch skills to build on though.Fair to say Morrison was much more 'great white hype' than all 4 in thread title? Only one I'd come close to thinking a 'club fighter-over achiever' may be Paz. Rest were well rounded. speaking of Paz apparently he went ballistic and beat the ever loving crap out of some guy on New Years http://wpri.com/2018/01/03/wanted-fo...ns-himself-in/

#Metoo and I think Plant will against Medina, who really brings it. Paz had real talent and world class heart. Legendary heart. Much better than an overachieving club fighter I feel.Morrison was very good in his prime and hit extremely hard with that left hook. Razor and Foreman are quality wins. Better than anyone Wilder has defeated n better than everyone Joshua has beaten save Klitschko.Saw that about Paz beating up his friend for stealing from him. He’s a fiery guy lol

Agreed on heart, one thing you could never question about Pazienza. The guy was as determined and passionate as they come.Morrison was one that I've reversed on over time. When he was coming up I think it was the incessant push and hype that turned me off. Arum and Cayton definitely played him up being a white dude with an actual shot at heavyweight success. Hype to the point of Stallone casting for Rocky and espn filming his 20th fight, the phony name ring attire and Sly 'working' the corner for future film footage. Regardless of early over hype Morrison very much proved his heart and punch later on. He also imo never gets credit for changing up and fighting smart vs Foreman, solid boxing learned over time. Loved the war with Joe Hipp too. One with a broken jaw and busted hand, the other with a shattered cheekbone and a face turned to raw hamburger. Awesome fight.

I’ll have to watch the Hipp fight. Never seen it.

[mikeeod]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

Like to see Caleb develop a mean streak and press his leads, top notch skills to build on though.Fair to say Morrison was much more 'great white hype' than all 4 in thread title? Only one I'd come close to thinking a 'club fighter-over achiever' may be Paz. Rest were well rounded. speaking of Paz apparently he went ballistic and beat the ever loving crap out of some guy on New Years http://wpri.com/2018/01/03/wanted-fo...ns-himself-in/

#Metoo and I think Plant will against Medina, who really brings it. Paz had real talent and world class heart. Legendary heart. Much better than an overachieving club fighter I feel.Morrison was very good in his prime and hit extremely hard with that left hook. Razor and Foreman are quality wins. Better than anyone Wilder has defeated n better than everyone Joshua has beaten save Klitschko.Saw that about Paz beating up his friend for stealing from him. He’s a fiery guy lol

Agreed on heart, one thing you could never question about Pazienza. The guy was as determined and passionate as they come.

Morrison was one that I've reversed on over time. When he was coming up I think it was the incessant push and hype that turned me off. Arum and Cayton definitely played him up being a white dude with an actual shot at heavyweight success. Hype to the point of Stallone casting for Rocky and espn filming his 20th fight, the phony name ring attire and Sly 'working' the corner for future film footage. Regardless of early over hype Morrison very much proved his heart and punch later on. He also imo never gets credit for changing up and fighting smart vs Foreman, solid boxing learned over time. Loved the war with Joe Hipp too. One with a broken jaw and busted hand, the other with a shattered cheekbone and a face turned to raw hamburger. Awesome fight.

Great post and good reference using the Hipp fight. I also thought Tommy looked ok in the Razor Ruddock fight, although I do recognize that Ruddock was well past his prime. I think Tommy's biggest issue was managing stress and sel confidence. I don't feel that he became exhausted due to a lack of conditioning or training, I think it was due to nerves/stress and lack of pacing. I don't think I appreciated the heavyweights of the nineties as much as I should have during that time.

[Master]

Interesting thread. Giving it a modern spin - Joe Smith Jr is the only current American white guy (excluding Latinos) rated in The Ring top 10 per division in the entire sport. Never even thought about it before, but how can a country with such a rich history be so under-represented? Non-Hispanic white's make up around 65% of 300 million people.Recently, Cletus Seldin got a spot on Danny Jacobs HBO undercard, although unbeaten with a pretty record, it was clear he was very limited, yet HBO requested he open their next show (Saunders-Lemieux) where, expectedly, he was totally exposed. Did he get that slot because he's white?Pavlik, in his pomp, once said he was underrated in America by fans/media because he's white, that even in gyms, he was looked at as the goofy white guy, until they saw him fight of course.

Caleb Plant is a good white fighter and stepping up against Porky Medina soon. I like Plant as he’s slick n has the best feints in the game right now imo. Hot girlfriend too in Jordan Hardy, the host of PBC.

Like to see Caleb develop a mean streak and press his leads, top notch skills to build on though.Fair to say Morrison was much more 'great white hype' than all 4 in thread title? Only one I'd come close to thinking a 'club fighter-over achiever' may be Paz. Rest were well rounded. speaking of Paz apparently he went ballistic and beat the ever loving crap out of some guy on New Years http://wpri.com/2018/01/03/wanted-fo...ns-himself-in/

#Metoo and I think Plant will against Medina, who really brings it. Paz had real talent and world class heart. Legendary heart. Much better than an overachieving club fighter I feel.Morrison was very good in his prime and hit extremely hard with that left hook. Razor and Foreman are quality wins. Better than anyone Wilder has defeated n better than everyone Joshua has beaten save Klitschko.Saw that about Paz beating up his friend for stealing from him. He’s a fiery guy lol

Agreed on heart, one thing you could never question about Pazienza. The guy was as determined and passionate as they come.

Morrison was one that I've reversed on over time. When he was coming up I think it was the incessant push and hype that turned me off. Arum and Cayton definitely played him up being a white dude with an actual shot at heavyweight success. Hype to the point of Stallone casting for Rocky and espn filming his 20th fight, the phony name ring attire and Sly 'working' the corner for future film footage. Regardless of early over hype Morrison very much proved his heart and punch later on. He also imo never gets credit for changing up and fighting smart vs Foreman, solid boxing learned over time. Loved the war with Joe Hipp too. One with a broken jaw and busted hand, the other with a shattered cheekbone and a face turned to raw hamburger. Awesome fight.

Great post and good reference using the Hipp fight. I also thought Tommy looked ok in the Razor Ruddock fight, although I do recognize that Ruddock was well past his prime. I think Tommy's biggest issue was managing stress and sel confidence. I don't feel that he became exhausted due to a lack of conditioning or training, I think it was due to nerves/stress and lack of pacing. I don't think I appreciated the heavyweights of the nineties as much as I should have during that time.

They were great times but when a top athlete has a weakness it is mainly due to that coming out and them simply not being good enough at the very highest level.