A neutrals perspective on the Manny debate ..........

[Jimmy G-Force]

First of all, there seems to be alot of negative bias towards Manny on this site. I can fully appreciate and understand the suspicions that have arisen regarding this affair, but whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ??

I've been reading about this for while, but as of yet, I've not bothered chipping in with my 2 cents until now. Now I like to think I'm pretty fair, and bearing in mind that Manny has battered 3 of my 4 favourite fighters of this era, it would be very easy to jump on this PED witchhunt. The bottom line is I cant, it's not fair. Until I have concrete evidence, then as far as I'm concerned, Manny is innocent.

Did I ever believe that Manny could move up to 147 and beat Oscar ? No I didnt. Do I think that win was down to PED's ? No I dont. The simple fact was that Oscar was done, shot, finished. I still give Manny props for doing what he did, but it hardly took a superhuman effort to beat what was a shadow of the Goldenboy. It was nothing more than perfect timing for Manny, and Roach knew this.

Do I think beating Hatton was the result of PED's. No I dont. I was told from someone within the Hatton camp, 3 weeks before the fight that Ricky would get knocked out. Rick had been struggling badly and getting beat up by lesser sparring partners. This KO really didnt come as a massive surprise. Even a peak Hatton would have been beaten by Manny, although not as easily. For me, Manny just had all tools required. Also, my other worry before this fight was how strong Manny looked at 147, albeit against a washed up De la Hoya. This told me that Ricky would no longer have the most important advantage in his game at 140lbs, which was his strength. If he couldnt bully Manny then he was as good as done, and he was.

Now for Cotto, did I believe that Manny would prove to be the stronger of the two as the fight went on ? No I didnt, that really defied conventional logic. But the start of Miguels demise was the fact he got hurt, badly and early, end of that story. I watched Cotto struggle at 140lbs for a while, I was very happy to see him move north and always believed he would be much better suited to 147lbs, and he was, but he was never a monster at 147lbs, like say Margarito.

The bottom line is acclimatization to the higher weight classes didnt happen overnight. This was, as far as I'm concerned, done very astutely over a period of time, and in my eyes, legally. Most fighters, even brilliant world champions, struggle to move through the weights with a great level on consistency. Very few manage to achieve what the likes of Floyd, Manny and Oscar have done in this era. But lets not forget this is a different era to years gone by. The dieting, nutritionists and the overall scientific approach that we have available for todays athletes are far superior to anything we have had before. Also, lets not forget, Floyd, Manny and Oscar are all very special fighters.

It's very easy to pass judgement on Manny, and the anti-Pac brigade are having a field day with this. It's certainly far from normal for a fighter to move from 108lbs all the way up to 147lbs and be competative with the worlds best. But it is possible, and I firmly believe that to the case with Manny, without PED's.

Why do I stand by Pacman ?

Firstly, with regards this whole testing situation. One thing I learnt from being around the Hatton camp during their negotiations with Manny is that he is a very hard man to deal with. Manny has so many people around him that he is influenced by, and to his detriment I believe. I kid you not, you would not believe all the shit that went on before Manny finally signed to fight Ricky. It was like a soap opera. From what I witnessed first hand, leads me to believe this is more a case of Manny simply not wanting to give Floyd and Co. their own way. Do I think this is a smart move by Manny ? Hell no, it's another PR disaster.

Does that make Manny guilty ? Not in my eyes, just seriously mis-informed. Manny, although his entourage exceeds that of 50 cent, loves to be his own man. His standing in his country is phenonmenal, it trancends the sport of boxing and some. With this comes an ego, albeit not one that is portrayed through the boxing media. It's Manny's terms or nothing, and this is where the ridiculous battle of ego's with Floyd has manifested. The last fighter you want to be in a battle of ego's with is Mayweather, period. And I truly believe this is what it is, and I dont see it subsiding anytime soon, which is to the obvious detriment of the game.

So why doesnt Manny just agree to the tests and be done ?

Back to the ego thing for me. He is a proud warrior, who has got, in my opinion , to where he is through hard work and a natural talent that has been brilliantly honed by Roach. In Manny's eyes why should he ? And to an extent I agree. This is round one in the mind games with Mayweather. And if he gives in to the test, Mayweather would be one up in his mind. It's very easy for us all to sit here and say, well you know what, why doesnt he just take the tests and prove everyone wrong. Should he really have to ? Ask yourself, would you ? Especially if you know yourself your clean ? It's a matter of principle.

I believe the reason Manny has moved through the weights so effortlessly, and beaten who he has is through a massive improvement in his game. Roach really has created a monster in Manny. He is no longer that left- hand happy fighter of years ago. He is well and truly the full package in every area. Lightening hand speed, brilliant angles, ridiculous footwork, this all refined talent. The power he has in hands is natural, it's also the combination of freakish speed and angles that when delivered gives him that power. Speed kills, and the ones you dont see coming are the ones that hurt. Thats Manny's technique for me, and not PED's. I really dont believe any fight fan that can honestly say they havent noticed the massive improvements in Manny's technical game over the years, its nothing short of frightening.

PED's will only ever get you so far. You need a stupid amount of talent to be able to perform the way Manny has done consistently in recent times, and against the best fighters in the world may I add. You simply cannot just juice up and become the super-skilled technician Manny is, no way.

I also train and bodybuild, and I have in the past used all kinds of PEDS, over quite a few years. The one thing I have always felt is that what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio. From training my body to playing football, these factors always became apparent to me. When I look at Manny's physique, the way his muscles are formed, the way he is cut, it does look like he may have used PED's. But you can get your body looking like that without juice, I have seen it many times. The one thing that is certain is that Manny's cardio has never been an issue, never. It's another reason I just dont feel he's guilty.

To conclude, I truly believe Manny to be a true warrior. His mentality tells me that. His skills are not in question, and I really do not believe he is the type of fighter to cheat. I just dont. Nothing about him tells me that is the case. People can jump on this anti-Pac bandwagon as much as they want. Most people on this bandwagon, if truth be known would really hope that Manny is guilty. That alone for me says everything. With all this said, I still dont believe he knows enough to beat Floyd, but thats another thread.

It's normally the media's job to build someone up then effortlessly knock them down. Manny has been a breath of freash air for the sport of boxing. He is a shining light in a sometimes dull landscape. In my opinion it is so wrong to tarnish the mans image and the sport of boxing without concrete evidence. As a fan for boxing, I truly believe we owe Manny that at the very least. Regardless whether he has battered my favourite fighters or not.

It's just my 2 cents, but as far as I'm concerned, innocent until proven guilty. I rest my case.

[erik_corrales]

awesome post jimmy.

i would also like to add that although i'm a filipino, i never really was a fan of pacquiao until i saw his fight with david diaz(i know, paper champ blah blah). i saw great movement, footwork and precision in his punches. i guess that's also when team pacquiao realized he's better off fighting heavier than the 120s, as evidenced by his improved game.

pacquiao and floyd are definitely unique specimens.

[erik_corrales]

is "specimens" even plural for specimen? haha

[TheBranMan]

You may just consider me another member of the "anti-pac brigade", as I happen to be a Mayweather fan, but regardless here's my two cents, on your two cents, put em together, and we get four cents. Believe it or not, I like Manny. I agree, he's done wonderful things for the sport of boxing. I think that his well-publicized refusal to random blood-testing may even be one of the last great things he does for the sport, as I believe the sport needs better testing methods. I'll touch on that later.

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

[hakkai619]

You may just consider me another member of the "anti-pac brigade", as I happen to be a Mayweather fan, but regardless here's my two cents, on your two cents, put em together, and we get four cents. Believe it or not, I like Manny. I agree, he's done wonderful things for the sport of boxing. I think that his well-publicized refusal to random blood-testing may even be one of the last great things he does for the sport, as I believe the sport needs better testing methods. I'll touch on that later.

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

Nice thoughts man. I do also believe in BTOD and innocent until proven guilty and also would love pacquiao to take the tests. I mean who wouldn't wanna see mayweather piss in his pants from thinking "Holy shit this guys for real. He did those things with skill alone"

[Gandalf]

Good posts in this thread.

I'm of the view that it boils down to 2 demands. One fighter accepted the conditions (weight penalty) and the other outright refused (random drugs test). We can say it boils down to misinformation or Manny having too much pride, but to turn down $40m over a contractual demand which is nothing more than a random blood test, is strange. There is no real reason why Manny cannot go through with it especially if Mayweather will do so too. There is no doubt that we are dealing with fighters who have bloated egos. But Mayweather was actually the one willing to cede something in order to make the fight. Manny has scoffed his nose looking for mega showdowns with Malignaggi and Foreman. Pac trying to sue his way out of this situation, makes him look even worse. All people want is a fight, not a pointless courtroom showdown. Manny's refusal to take the tests has hurt him more than the words of anybody. Nobody listened when Mayweather Snr spoke all those months ago. It's only now Manny has refused a test and started to take legal action that people are really discussing the drug rumours.

[Jimmy G-Force]

Good posts in this thread.

I'm of the view that it boils down to 2 demands. One fighter accepted the conditions (weight penalty) and the other outright refused (random drugs test). We can say it boils down to misinformation or Manny having too much pride, but to turn down $40m over a contractual demand which is nothing more than a random blood test, is strange.There is no real reason why Manny cannot go through with it especially if Mayweather will do so too. There is no doubt that we are dealing with fighters who have bloated egos. But Mayweather was actually the one willing to cede something in order to make the fight. Manny has scoffed his nose looking for mega showdowns with Malignaggi and Foreman. Pac trying to sue his way out of this situation, makes him look even worse. All people want is a fight, not a pointless courtroom showdown. Manny's refusal to take the tests has hurt him more than the words of anybody. Nobody listened when Mayweather Snr spoke all those months ago. It's only now Manny has refused a test and started to take legal action that people are really discussing the drug rumours.

To be honest Miles, I think one demand is par for the course with regards the weight issue, it had to be stipulated after the stunt Floyd pulled with Marquez. It was also pure fact Mayweather came in over the limit. I do concede the penalty is pretty outrageous, but it is what it is. You have to make the limit full stop. How the Cotto fight was for a title a 145lbs is beyond me. The other demand is a slur on Manny and everything he has achieved to date, and most certainly not a fact. As for Manny's court action, it was the only way to go, and I'm sure anyone would have done the same to clear their name. It's not ideal for us as fans, but the bottom line is you have to put yourself in Manny's position. Just think for one moment Manny is completely clean, and just imagine how you would feel with all these allegations. Especially after how hard he has genuinely worked to get to this lofty perch of which he currently resides.

I have no doubt that when Manny decides giving the random test is the only way, then he will concede to the demand, and everything will be above board. But like I said in my initial post, getting Manny to do something he is not 100% with is like pulling teeth. The on/off saga that went with his fight with Rick was ridiculous, and all over such petty things. In all the years being around Rick I have never seen anything like it, and very little came to light in the media. The proposed fight with Paulie or Yuri is nothing more than a smokescreen, and typical in the bargaining stakes, I've seen it many times in negotiations. Manny is one stubborn man, there is no question about that. How much of that comes from interests around him I'm not sure. I am sure this is a battle of the ego's though and nothing more.

[generalbulldog]

Well someone here said that Victor Conte stated Pac was using EPO for his stamina. I disagree with that part. The thread starter is right on 1 thing and that is Pac never had a problem with stamina. I remember ICB started a thread and posted a video of Pac fighting for the WBC FLyweight championship when he was 19, although he was still very raw, you can still see the agression and him continously throwing 80-90 punches per round until the opponent was knockout. And at that time Roach and Ariza were not part of his team. Unless someone here is going to suggest those Fillipino cornermen were supplying him with EPO at that time?

[erik_corrales]

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

EPO Drug Testing, EPO Detection - World Anti-Doping Agency problem solved?

[Gandalf]

Good posts in this thread.

I'm of the view that it boils down to 2 demands. One fighter accepted the conditions (weight penalty) and the other outright refused (random drugs test). We can say it boils down to misinformation or Manny having too much pride, but to turn down $40m over a contractual demand which is nothing more than a random blood test, is strange.There is no real reason why Manny cannot go through with it especially if Mayweather will do so too. There is no doubt that we are dealing with fighters who have bloated egos. But Mayweather was actually the one willing to cede something in order to make the fight. Manny has scoffed his nose looking for mega showdowns with Malignaggi and Foreman. Pac trying to sue his way out of this situation, makes him look even worse. All people want is a fight, not a pointless courtroom showdown. Manny's refusal to take the tests has hurt him more than the words of anybody. Nobody listened when Mayweather Snr spoke all those months ago. It's only now Manny has refused a test and started to take legal action that people are really discussing the drug rumours.

To be honest Miles, I think one demand is par for the course with regards the weight issue, it had to be stipulated after the stunt Floyd pulled with Marquez. I do concede the penalty is pretty outrageous, but it is what it is. You have to make the limit full stop. How the Cotto fight was for a title a 145lbs is beyond me. The other demand is a slur on Manny and everything he has achieved to date. As for Manny's court action, it was the only way to go, and I'm sure anyone would have done the same to clear their name. It's not ideal for us as fans, but the bottom line is you have to put yourself in Manny's position. Just think for one moment Manny is completely clean, and just imagine how you would feel with all these allegations. Especially after how hard he has genuinely worked to get to this lofty perch of which he currently resides.

I have no doubt that when Manny decides giving the random test is the only way, then he will concede to the demand, and everything will be above board. But like I said in my initial post, getting Manny to do something he is not 100% with is like pulling teeth. The on/off saga that went with his fight with Rick was ridiculous, and all over such petty things. In all the years being around Rick I have never seen anything like it, and very little came to light in the media. The proposed fight with Paulie or Yuri is nothing more than a smokescreen, and typical in the bargaining stakes, I've seen it many times in negotiations. Manny is one stubborn man, there is no question about that. How much of that comes from interests around him I'm not sure. I am sure this is a battle of the ego's though and nothing more.

I agree with the weight stipulation too. Mayweathers behaviour with Marquez was outrageous. Making weight should not really be an issue, but Mayweather did make it an issue through his actions. I was very critical of Mayweather at the time.

Actually, this current situation is one of the very few times that I have been able to look at things from Mayweathers perspective. I'm usually irritated by him, but on this one point (the drugs test) I do think he has a case. It is unfair to accuse Manny of being on drugs, which some have done. After all, there is no real evidence. But having said that I can see the merits in random drug testing. On an ethical standpoint and looking at it from Mayweathers perspective, if there are loopholes, isn't it a good thing to erase all those loopholes and just make sure? Looking at it like that, I don't see any reason to refuse. If Manny had just agreed with no hullaballoo we would have had a fight made and this whole thing probably wouldn't have blown into the issue that it has become.

I agree that what we have is a couple of ego's at loggerheads and it has just become plain annoying for the fans. Hopefully something will get worked out because this fight is what boxing needs right now. Would be a great shame to let it pass over what on the surface seems like such a quibble.

[Jimmy G-Force]

Actually, this current situation is one of the very few times that I have been able to look at things from Mayweathers perspective. I'm usually irritated by him, but on this one point (the drugs test) I do think he has a case. It is unfair to accuse Manny of being on drugs, which some have done. After all, there is no real evidence. But having said that I can see the merits in random drug testing. On an ethical standpoint and looking at it from Mayweathers perspective, if there are loopholes, isn't it a good thing to erase all those loopholes and just make sure? Looking at it like that, I don't see any reason to refuse. If Manny had just agreed with no hullaballoo we would have had a fight made and this whole thing probably wouldn't have blown into the issue that it has become.

I agree that what we have is a couple of ego's at loggerheads and it has just become plain annoying for the fans. Hopefully something will get worked out because this fight is what boxing needs right now. Would be a great shame to let it pass over what on the surface seems like such a quibble.

I so wish that was true Miles. Call me a cynic, but from my experiences with both Mayweather and Pacman, this was always a fight that was going to be a million miles away from being signed smoothly. Regardless of the testing issue, there is a long way to go before these two agree amicably and sign on the dotted line.

Your dead right about the fight though, it's a must have for the sport of boxing, never mind the fans. In 25 years of following the sport, I've not known of a bigger fight. The question about the era's greatest fighter can not be answered until these two meet. I also think when it finally does get made, they will be more than one fight, but I'll stop there as I'm getting waaayyy ahead of myself.

[KKisser]

You may just consider me another member of the "anti-pac brigade", as I happen to be a Mayweather fan, but regardless here's my two cents, on your two cents, put em together, and we get four cents. Believe it or not, I like Manny. I agree, he's done wonderful things for the sport of boxing. I think that his well-publicized refusal to random blood-testing may even be one of the last great things he does for the sport, as I believe the sport needs better testing methods. I'll touch on that later.

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

i remember back then when me and my bros (i got 5 other brothers who all love boxing) first saw pac when he was maybe around 17 or 18, we were amazed at how manny keeps throwing power shots after power shots and never seem to tire. another thing is the kid has heart coz he doesn't mind getting hit as long as he put in his licks. my eldest bro said that the kid will never get anywhere because he doesn't have the proper boxing fundamentals and will lose once he faces someone with good skills. my bro even said no way he can beat a mexican coz we always considered them to be the best in the lower weight divisions. the rest of us defended manny's chances coz never have i seen anything like what the kid is capable of. we said all he needs is proper training coz he already got all the qualities of a potential great fighter. in time, even without world class training he won a world title and then he met freddy roach. freddy molded pac into what he is today. it took some time but i believe all the hard work paid off finally in the fight against david diaz where pacquiao finally realized his full potential.

if manny is on epo to increase his stamina, he musta been on it since he started boxing. lol

[pacQ]

why did MP react that way? because the accusation came from Mayweather sr.!

MP knows that the mayweathers gonna play mind games on him.

had the drugtesting been coursed thru the Nevada state commission, then IMHO, manny would have agreed.

the key is how to approach MP the right way.

[Jimmy G-Force]

the key is how to approach MP the right way.

Isnt that just the truth. His way or the highway.

[Gandalf]

the key is how to approach MP the right way.

Isnt that just the truth. His way or the highway.

Yep, give him and his team ALL they want or no fight for the hungry public. As a man of the people Manny does come come across as a rather selfish and egotistical little man. All it took was a random blood test.