earnie shavers: the hardest heavyweight puncher ever?

[Max Power]

earnie shavers hit about a factor of 10 harder than sam "rabbit punch" peter.

then why is it that he could not knock ali out despite landing flush sunday punches on him multiple times every round?

I already know the response.

Shavers has the hardest punch, muhammad has the hardest chin right?

For all time right?

An untestable position to take, and therefore worthless.

Unbelievable that you cans can think this with the video and statistical evidence combined!

nobody ever knocked ali out.

And this is supposed to be interpreted that nobody ever could have right? Bloody genius.

We have seen him wasted by a 180lb bum.

He was stopped by Holmes, which is generally taken to mean he was going to be knocked out otherwise. And he never fought a hard puncher like PEter. And Foreman never landed cleanly on his head.

[Master]

Max oh Max what are we to do with you?

That is the best you could come back with?

Cooper never wasted Ali, he knocked him down.

Ali could barely talk when he fought Holmes and still a peak Larry could not knock him down never mind out.

Do you really think any fighter wants to get deliberately hit on the head from the most powerful heavyweight champion ever? Of course not.

[Bill Paxtom]

"I never saw a fighter punch so hard"

Tuesday ~September 19, 1972

Moonlight Gardens Ballroom ~ Canton, Ohio

Earnie Shavers ~ 40-2-0 {39 KO's} ~ 203 lbs.
vs.
AJ Staples ~ 17-6-0 {15 KO's} ~ 187 lbs.

Earnie was scheduled to face Heavyweight - Frankie Evans of Port Arthur, Texas.

But Frankie bruised his ribs in training, and had to pull out.

Enter >
AJ Staples, a 27 year-old - 6' 1" southpaw from St. Louis, Missouri. Staples a slick-boxer
from St. Louis was riding a '6-Bout' {all by KO} winning streak since September 1971,
and AJ felt 'no fear' in facing off against Earnie Shavers.

AJ Staples >
"I'm not worried about Earnie's power. He has no stamina, and will be out of gas
by the end of the 2nd-Round."

"I'll just box and move, and wait a few Rounds. And I can hit hard pretty good
myself, and if Earnie's not careful I'll take him out quick."

[Max Power]

Max oh Max what are we to do with you?

That is the best you could come back with?

Cooper never wasted Ali, he knocked him down.

Ali could barely talk when he fought Holmes and still a peak Larry could not knock him down never mind out.

Do you really think any fighter wants to get deliberately hit on the head from the most powerful heavyweight champion ever? Of course not.

Alright then Master, fair enough.

Let's try something a little different then.

What about Alexander Povetkin then? This guy was never even knocked DOWN in over 300 fights ammy+pro combined let alone out, until he fought Wladimir Klitschko which he survived but suffered the first KD's of his career.

Does that mean that Alexander Povetkin could never be knocked out if he were to fight in the Golden Era? In in fact DO think Alexander wouldn't be KOed in it but can you see it's the same logic applied?

As can be done for Vitali Klitschko who was never even KD! So basically based on that I would claim Vitali would be indestructible in the 70's right?

There IS a way to show the difference in power and chin indirectly across the eras to know that MY set of boxers (Vitali, Alexander, Samuel, Wlad etc) hit harder and are tougher than your set (Foreman, Shavers, Ali, Cooper etc).

You can see that the AVERAGE WEIGHT of all of the modern opponents fought, KOed and KOed by, won and lost against are much higher for the modern boxers AND they generally have better records against them as well.

This weight generally confers more crude punching power and more punch resistance. Especially when we are talking generally over an entire eras worth or an entire boxers worth of opponents it is highly representative and especially when we are talking about an average of 35lb the difference in weight!

I don't think Muhammad Ali could take a good punch in this era and I think the evidence is pretty compelling but you go ahead and believe in your indestructible mandible of Ali and your super punching Shaver and Foreman if you like.

[brocktonblockbust]

Ali was an alien. So was Holmes. So was Tyson. So was Foreman. BEST 4 CHINS OF ALL TIME.

FACT.

[Max Power]

Ali was an alien. So was Holmes. So was Tyson. So was Foreman. BEST 4 CHINS OF ALL TIME.

FACT.

So they were all aliens, but suddenly the aliens departed leaving us with only mortal chins like Wach, Stiverne, Povetkin, Pulev and Vitali and Peter etc. Ok, sure. THAT'S a sensible opinion

Muhammad Ali was knocked down by a 180lber among many other featherfists and the fight had to be stopped against Holmes to save his ass.

Holmes was knocked down sometimes and catastrophically KOed against Tyson.

Tyson was KO'ed several times, including once by a cruiser featherfist and once by a bummy featherfist (bless his big heart).

Foreman was KOed, dropped and wobbled by 3 featherfists respectively (Ali, Young and Moorer).

Now I KNOW these guys are hard chinned. Nobody is claiming they were glass jaws. But I fail to see how they can be claimed to be harder than these...

Marius Wach- Never knocked down ever in any boxing match. After the WK fight he earned the nickname "hardest chin on the planet"

Ross Puritty- Another candidate for "hardest chin on Earth", faced a who's who list of superheavyweight punchers in an extensive career and lost a tonne of his fights but was never stopped bar or even dropped barring one occasion where he was dropped and waved out on his feet in his 2nd fight.

Alexander Povetkin- Never been dropped let alone stopped in 300 fights pro+ammy combined until Wlad dropped him but didn't stop him.

Marion Wilson- Possibly the hardest chin that has and will ever exist for a long time to come, LOST almost ALL of his fights! And was never knocked down or out. Suffering a single stoppage on cuts alone.

Vitali Klitschko- Never knocked off his feet ever in any boxing match.

Oliver McCall- Only 1 technical KO in over 70 fights!

Evander Holyfield- Only 2 stoppages in 50 odd fights

These guys fought in eras of "Superheavyweight punchers" exclusively.

Ali fought his entire career in the cruiser featherfist era and Foreman and Holmes fought half their careers in it. Tyson did not display the same chin as the above guys.

Chin is relative to your own weight/build and the weight of your competition, obviously!

[Andre]

I don't think that question will ever be answered.

If we go by end result: No man has ever been injured the way Jess Willard was against Dempsey: broken orbital bone, fractures, teeth(several) knocked out...

Not saying Dempsey hits harder than Shavers or Tua or Tyson, or Wlad.. hell sounds like loaded gloves, but we dont know that either...so how else can a question be answered without it being subjective as opposed to objective?

Yeah and theres a lot more things to consider too, like more rounds and a lot less fucking around (less technique) the further back you go in history, thinner the gloves get too.Some modern guys wouldnt hold up, some of the leaders now would dominate.
With less training and evasive techniques back then you'd need a solid chin or a decent reserve to last.The championship rounds as once were, have been taken away over the years from no end of rounds, to 20 rounds ,down to 15, all for fighters safety no other reason. For that alone we need to stretch our thoughts out a bit more than just straight comparisons between then and now.
Dudes are getting bigger now too, even the Asians since eating more meat are shooting out some giants of their own.
Some modern fighters who are not top skill level can still do it the old way, look at Hatton probably not what you would call a natural, he used to train for 20 rounders that won him what it did got him as a far as it could.
Then you got some lazy fighters who rely on heavy hands and a good beard, same thing in all eras.
The lines all cross in many ways it isnt clean cut.

[Master]

Max oh Max what are we to do with you?

That is the best you could come back with?

Cooper never wasted Ali, he knocked him down.

Ali could barely talk when he fought Holmes and still a peak Larry could not knock him down never mind out.

Do you really think any fighter wants to get deliberately hit on the head from the most powerful heavyweight champion ever? Of course not.

Alright then Master, fair enough.

Let's try something a little different then.

What about Alexander Povetkin then? This guy was never even knocked DOWN in over 300 fights ammy+pro combined let alone out, until he fought Wladimir Klitschko which he survived but suffered the first KD's of his career.

Does that mean that Alexander Povetkin could never be knocked out if he were to fight in the Golden Era? In in fact DO think Alexander wouldn't be KOed in it but can you see it's the same logic applied?

As can be done for Vitali Klitschko who was never even KD! So basically based on that I would claim Vitali would be indestructible in the 70's right?

There IS a way to show the difference in power and chin indirectly across the eras to know that MY set of boxers (Vitali, Alexander, Samuel, Wlad etc) hit harder and are tougher than your set (Foreman, Shavers, Ali, Cooper etc).

You can see that the AVERAGE WEIGHT of all of the modern opponents fought, KOed and KOed by, won and lost against are much higher for the modern boxers AND they generally have better records against them as well.

This weight generally confers more crude punching power and more punch resistance. Especially when we are talking generally over an entire eras worth or an entire boxers worth of opponents it is highly representative and especially when we are talking about an average of 35lb the difference in weight!

I don't think Muhammad Ali could take a good punch in this era and I think the evidence is pretty compelling but you go ahead and believe in your indestructible mandible of Ali and your super punching Shaver and Foreman if you like.

I could see Foreman knock out Wlad.

[brocktonblockbust]

George clubs Wlad out in 2 rounds, his usual 6 minute butchery.

[Max Power]

Max oh Max what are we to do with you?

That is the best you could come back with?

Cooper never wasted Ali, he knocked him down.

Ali could barely talk when he fought Holmes and still a peak Larry could not knock him down never mind out.

Do you really think any fighter wants to get deliberately hit on the head from the most powerful heavyweight champion ever? Of course not.

Alright then Master, fair enough.

Let's try something a little different then.

What about Alexander Povetkin then? This guy was never even knocked DOWN in over 300 fights ammy+pro combined let alone out, until he fought Wladimir Klitschko which he survived but suffered the first KD's of his career.

Does that mean that Alexander Povetkin could never be knocked out if he were to fight in the Golden Era? In in fact DO think Alexander wouldn't be KOed in it but can you see it's the same logic applied?

As can be done for Vitali Klitschko who was never even KD! So basically based on that I would claim Vitali would be indestructible in the 70's right?

There IS a way to show the difference in power and chin indirectly across the eras to know that MY set of boxers (Vitali, Alexander, Samuel, Wlad etc) hit harder and are tougher than your set (Foreman, Shavers, Ali, Cooper etc).

You can see that the AVERAGE WEIGHT of all of the modern opponents fought, KOed and KOed by, won and lost against are much higher for the modern boxers AND they generally have better records against them as well.

This weight generally confers more crude punching power and more punch resistance. Especially when we are talking generally over an entire eras worth or an entire boxers worth of opponents it is highly representative and especially when we are talking about an average of 35lb the difference in weight!

I don't think Muhammad Ali could take a good punch in this era and I think the evidence is pretty compelling but you go ahead and believe in your indestructible mandible of Ali and your super punching Shaver and Foreman if you like.

I could see Foreman knock out Wlad.

Yes, I give Foreman a decent punchers chance vs Wladimir. In fact of all the golden era boxers, I give Geroge Foreman the best chance (and Larry Holmes but he was technically not part of that era).

But then once you observe some of Foreman's actual fights (vs Lyle in particular) where he faced an opponent with range and power SUDDENLY he was no thrashing machine like he was against other mismatched opponents.

Like Lennox Lewis said about the chances of Rahman vs Wladimir... "I think that's a FAT chance!"

[Max Power]

George clubs Wlad out in 2 rounds, his usual 6 minute butchery.

Yes because Wladimir has always been vulnerable to slow plodders significantly smaller and lighter who stand right in front of him and wail wide arcing arm and push punches telegraphed from China at him isn't he.

Thanks. I hadn't noticed that enormous gap in his defences by now.

[Max Power]

Yeah and theres a lot more things to consider too, like more rounds and a lot less fucking around (less technique) the further back you go in history, thinner the gloves get too.Some modern guys wouldnt hold up, some of the leaders now would dominate.

Boxers have become more evasive and developed technique the closer to the present because of much harder punches in the HW's. The sport has also evolved more professionally, back then it was more of a "tough man contest" today they are elite athletes.

Thinner gloves presents a bit of a puzzle. You would THINK that the power of the punch is greater with thinner gloves but in fact, this exact thing was busted on that sports science show. Turned out that the amount of force transferred to the head was exactly the same (it is spread over wider portion of the head and leads to an identical concussive force. Thinner gloves obviously though leads to more structural damage to the skin, skull and sensory organs. For this reason however, fights were often stopped when the boxer had become disfigured (which would never be allowed today) but it is believed there are more cases of brain damage today than then because the boxer can receive more punches for longer.

It is unclear whether a modern boxer would want to BE a boxer under such conditions. But were they to accept I am quite certain they could dominate it. The reverse would be next to impossible I believe, but that's just an opinion.

You also mentioned rounds. More rounds generally equates to featherfists. As a rule, the more rounds fought, either the lighter the boxers, the more featherfisted the boxers in it, and/or the plans have failed or were compromised by the opponent.

[Master]

Like Lennox Lewis said about the chances of Rahman vs Wladimir... "I think that's a FAT chance!"

Povetkin v Rahman was a disgraceful fight. The Rock could barely stand.

[brocktonblockbust]

Tua and maskaev butchered the Rock. He was already done back in the early 2000s.

[Max Power]

Tua and maskaev butchered the Rock. He was already done back in the early 2000s.

That is rubbish! Absolute ruibbish!

Rahman lost all 4 of these fights on paper. The 2 Maskaev fights he dominantly won in scoring wise but was legit KOed at the end.

Rahman was 2ce ripped off against Tua, the first fight was stopped prem after Rahman dominantly outboxed Tua and the 2nd SD, Rahman clearly done enough to win.

Your point here is not relevant at all.

Rahman was a tremendously tough opponent and by augmenting his actual record with these actual facts, you can get a feeling for Rahman's true worth as a modern HW boxer.

This thread has deviated from it's original Shaver's highlight.

Ironically we are now onto Rahman who punches about 3 times harder and is also about 3 times a better boxer than Shavers. Where does it end?

Next thing, you'll be claiming Shavers is a decent opponent for the Klitschko's, Lewis, Tyson, Bowe and Holyfield!

Unbelievable!