Some cultures are better than others ? True, False, Impossible to answer conclusively

[El Kabong]

To be honest Lyle you are just being a cunt now. Your Idol Donald Trump has just practically got on his knees to suck up to a regime in Saudi Arabia that is behind much of the horror committed in the name of Wahhabisim in the west and legalised in that country, and yet, as per usual, you are silent, because for you this has nothing to do with people's rights, or protecting the innocent. It's all one big game, where you can stride about with your pompous arrogance, telling everybody not just what you think, but what other posters think too. Nowhere, and I mean absolutely nowhere have I ever said that people should not judge the actions of those who use religion, or culture, as an excuse to abuse, silence and kill people.

You are inventing straw man arguments because the world refuses to submit to your narrow and very child like simplistic view of it. You are so obsessed with the issues in Islam that it seems to matter not one jot that I pointed them and the problems with multiculturalism out literally years ago on this very forum. You bring up Rotheram because for you it is some kind of ace card to win a hand with. You are just as bad as the PC brigade (which to be honest both you and Brock are the worst examples of) and don't mention the fact that these were evil MEN, you refuse to mention the fact that alcohol, drugs , rape and abuse are all forbidden by their CULTURE. You fail to mention the fact that this all happened in a western country that failed to apply existing laws to protect young poor vulnerable girls and that vicitms of all colours and backgrounds continue to be at risk because of flaws in that culture.

Nobody here is saying that people afraid of being called racist were right to not act in locking up these animals. Certainly not me. Or is that what you are accusing me of now. Really? You are willing to go that far in making bullshit up to win an argument?

What a fucking low life you are if that is the case

I've invented nothing the question is "Are some cultures better than others?" you have chosen "Impossible to answer"....I keep providing examples of abhorrent, albeit socially acceptable behaviors which are found in various cultures in order to help you figure it out for yourself. You don't say "Oh, that's horrible, that IS a bad part of that culture" nah you wouldn't do that, you attack me, you call me a bigot and say I've invented a strawman....no sir, I am providing evidence for my belief that while no culture is perfect SOME cultures are indeed better than others.


Not for nothing, you talk shit about the Saudis and do you denounce their culture? NOT ONCE, not one fucking time! Oh it's behind Wahhabism and extremism but ooooh how can we ever tell if those cultures are worse than western culture....go fuck yourself, you can't fucking tell the difference, how fucking dense are you?

[TitoFan]

The Battle of the Cultures rages on.

I myself voted "impossible to answer conclusively" and if I had to vote again, I'd vote the same thing. Simply put, I think the atrocities we see on TV and splashed across the headlines are abhorrent behaviors, even to those from the same culture. What we get fed through the eyeballs are the extremists who take advantage of situations to further their "cause." The question was a tough one to answer, admittedly. It's easy enough to press the TRUE button, given what we see every day.

Most of the argument points have to do with culture's treatment of women. It's true that in most Western cultures we are more advanced in the treatment of women as equals. But it seems we've all come from the same place. Women in "civilized" cultures were at one time seen as 2nd-class citizens, denied basic rights under the law. In Islamic countries, women's rights haven't changed all that much. But I can't believe the true nature of a people, no matter where they live, applauds the abuse, torture, or humiliation of women. Again... we're not talking opportunistic extremists. We're talking the core of the culture itself.

I think the word "better" is the incendiary word here. Maybe it would be more fair to say "advanced." "Better" just sounds too judgmental, and none of us has really lived in all these different cultures enough time to make sound judgments.

Supposedly modern, advanced cultures may be gaining ground on women's rights... but many of them ironically have a long way to go in other areas, such as race. It seems sad to me that it still takes government regulations and interventions, most of them inadequate and ill-aimed, to force people to view everyone else as equals.

Basically it boils down to the old "glass walls" adage. Not good at sayings, but it's something about not throwing stones if you have glass walls in your own house.

[El Kabong]

"Advanced" instead of "Better"

"Here in the West, we're Advanced....we don't beat our women for deciding to wear pants or throw gays off of rooftops"......I mean however it makes sense to you I think "Advanced" could seem a bit condescending like those folks in the Middle East don't have access to the internet or whatever.

"Here in the West, we're Advanced....we don't marry our first cousins" http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/wo...nbreeding.html
"Across the Arab world today an average of 45 percent of married couples are related, according to Dr. Nadia Sakati, a pediatrician and senior consultant for the genetics research center at King Faisal Specialist Hospital in Riyadh."

.....however you look at it man, there's things that happen in other cultures we can learn from and then there's things we can LEARN from and never ever do ever.

[TitoFan]

"Advanced" instead of "Better"

"Here in the West, we're Advanced....we don't beat our women for deciding to wear pants or throw gays off of rooftops"......I mean however it makes sense to you I think "Advanced" could seem a bit condescending like those folks in the Middle East don't have access to the internet or whatever.

"Here in the West, we're Advanced....we don't marry our first cousins" http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/wo...nbreeding.html
"Across the Arab world today an average of 45 percent of married couples are related, according to Dr. Nadia Sakati, a pediatrician and senior consultant for the genetics research center at King Faisal Specialist Hospital in Riyadh."

.....however you look at it man, there's things that happen in other cultures we can learn from and then there's things we can LEARN from and never ever do ever.

"We don't throw gays off rooftops"

Of course not. But there's plenty of documented, violent crimes against gays in the U.S.... one of the most recent being the infamous shooting at the Orlando gay bar. It's not part of the mainstream culture to violently attack gays, of course, but a lot of misguided, hateful people do. It's not part of the Saudi culture to throw gays off rooftops... but I'm sure it has happened lots of times. It goes back to my original statement.

"We don't marry our first cousins"

Again, the vast majority of Americans don't. But there's documented issues with inbreeding in states such as Kentucky. Again, you can't judge a culture because of some extremist sectors.


When all is said and done, I'd rather live in this part of the world than in the Middle East..... but that's mostly I was born and raised in the West and am used to our ways. If I'd been born and raised over there I might very well see things a little differently.

[El Kabong]

"We don't throw gays off rooftops"

Of course not. But there's plenty of documented, violent crimes against gays in the U.S.... one of the most recent being the infamous shooting at the Orlando gay bar. It's not part of the mainstream culture to violently attack gays, of course, but a lot of misguided, hateful people do. It's not part of the Saudi culture to throw gays off rooftops... but I'm sure it has happened lots of times. It goes back to my original statement.

"We don't marry our first cousins"

Again, the vast majority of Americans don't. But there's documented issues with inbreeding in states such as Kentucky. Again, you can't judge a culture because of some extremist sectors.


When all is said and done, I'd rather live in this part of the world than in the Middle East..... but that's mostly I was born and raised in the West and am used to our ways. If I'd been born and raised over there I might very well see things a little differently.

Ah yes, the Pulse Nightclub shooting, the one done by the guy who pledged his allegiance to ISIS.....brilliant example of how horrible AMERICANS are to gays

Violence against gays in the United States is not community sanctioned, it's not "Hey everyone, we're going to sing 'It's Raining Men' and throw these guys off of the roof and if they survive the fall you crowd of people below just pelt them with rocks until they stop moving, it'll be a great community effort right?"....that doesn't happen TitoFan.



"Again, the vast majority of Americans don't".....


So I guess we just won't ever be able to tell if one culture is better than another seeing how Kentuckians are constantly blowing everything up and beheading anyone who doesn't abide by their backwards ways of thinking.




Dude, at least be reasonable....the Orlando nightclub shooting as an example of how Americans treat gay people....that hurts my brain to even attempt to put myself in your shoes and imagine how you decided that was an argument which helped YOUR side of this debate. Holy shit man...what will we see next?


'You see, Sirhan Sirhan's assassination of Robert Kennedy illustrates just how poorly Americans view Catholics'

'One must understand....you see how Leon Klinghoffer was treated aboard the Achille Lauro. That shows just how horrible Americans treat those with disabilities'

'When you look at Pan Am flight 103, you begin to notice just how much hate Americans have for international flights'

[TitoFan]

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...."

Omar Mateen was an American with Muslim parents, who emigrated to the States almost 4 decades ago.

Every example of naturalized citizens you so gleefully post were just that..... naturalized citizens.

But let's remove all immigrants from the picture as far as the American culture argument goes, so we don't have any bias one way or the other.
What does that leave us? A handful of Indians?

What is America (or rather... the United States... because the term "America" technically includes the entire hemisphere), but a conglomerate of vast groups of immigrants who migrated at one point or another in history. Italians, Irish, Africans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Asian, so on and so forth, etc, etc, etc. Hell...... even MUSLIMS!!

How are we managing to throw dividing lines here to claim culture superiority, when the U.S. is truly a melting pot of different cultures, all rolled into one.

Further yet..... what clear and correct vantage point do we have to claim that the atrocities committed by groups of misguided souls actually represent the culture of an entire people or nation?? If you can answer that question truthfully and without bias, be my guest.

But let's forget about the Mateen's of the world. How about good ol' American names..... like Timothy McVeigh? John Allen Williams? Seung-Hui Cho? (Oops.... he's of Asian descent. Damn that Asian culture..... they are hereby deemed inferior). James Eagan Holmes? Wade Michael Page? Frazier Glenn Miller Jr.? David Koresh?

I could go on but what's the point. Many of these are anti-government, or white supremacists, or neo-Nazis, or all of the above.

Do they represent the majority of Americ..... er.....United States citizens? Of course not. Just like the "gay-throwing mobs" in the Middle East are not representative of that culture. They're deluded fanatics, just like those in the United States.

For all the advancements and freedoms enjoyed by the average Mr. White in Everytown, USA...... there's still a lot of social ills that could be used to point fingers at the (ahem) culture. How about the apparent new penalty for jaywalking in Sacramento, California (if you happen to be black)? What is it..... body-slam to the concrete, followed by 20 punches to the head... is that it?

I don't want to go out on a limb here...... but I'm gonna venture to say it's probably safer for a black person to cross the street in Riyadh than in Sacramento.
Just a hunch.

[El Kabong]

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...."

Omar Mateen was an American with Muslim parents, who emigrated to the States almost 4 decades ago.

Every example of naturalized citizens you so gleefully post were just that..... naturalized citizens.

But let's remove all immigrants from the picture as far as the American culture argument goes, so we don't have any bias one way or the other.
What does that leave us? A handful of Indians?

What is America (or rather... the United States... because the term "America" technically includes the entire hemisphere), but a conglomerate of vast groups of immigrants who migrated at one point or another in history. Italians, Irish, Africans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Asian, so on and so forth, etc, etc, etc. Hell...... even MUSLIMS!!

How are we managing to throw dividing lines here to claim culture superiority, when the U.S. is truly a melting pot of different cultures, all rolled into one.

Further yet..... what clear and correct vantage point do we have to claim that the atrocities committed by groups of misguided souls actually represent the culture of an entire people or nation?? If you can answer that question truthfully and without bias, be my guest.

But let's forget about the Mateen's of the world. How about good ol' American names..... like Timothy McVeigh? John Allen Williams? Seung-Hui Cho? (Oops.... he's of Asian descent. Damn that Asian culture..... they are hereby deemed inferior). James Eagan Holmes? Wade Michael Page? Frazier Glenn Miller Jr.? David Koresh?

I could go on but what's the point. Many of these are anti-government, or white supremacists, or neo-Nazis, or all of the above.

Do they represent the majority of Americ..... er.....United States citizens? Of course not. Just like the "gay-throwing mobs" in the Middle East are not representative of that culture. They're deluded fanatics, just like those in the United States.

For all the advancements and freedoms enjoyed by the average Mr. White in Everytown, USA...... there's still a lot of social ills that could be used to point fingers at the (ahem) culture. How about the apparent new penalty for jaywalking in Sacramento, California (if you happen to be black)? What is it..... body-slam to the concrete, followed by 20 punches to the head... is that it?

I don't want to go out on a limb here...... but I'm gonna venture to say it's probably safer for a black person to cross the street in Riyadh than in Sacramento.
Just a hunch.

"There once was a man from Nantucket...."....I can recite parts of poems too ya know


Ah yes, Omar Mateen had what kind of parents? Oh that's right MUSLIM parents and 1 specifically, his father Mir Seddique Mateen apparently had some CULTURAL feelings about gays saying in a video (and I quote): "Allah will punish those involved in homosexuality," & "not an issue that humans should deal with."....yes oh so All-American almost like The Cleavers on Leave It To Beaver ....his father was PRO-Taliban dude....oh pshaw, that's like being in the Neighborhood Watch, it's as American as apple pie by golly


This isn't an argument about immigration, if you want to mention the Muslims who immigrate and DON'T shoot shit up or blow things up then please I beg you do so. I'm not saying they are incapable of assimilation to Western society, quite a few are. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bridgitte Gabriel, Salman Rushdie....there's plenty who adapt pretty well and let people live their lives without murdering people. Did the Chinese murder people? Did the Irish? Did the Jews? Did the Italians? Did the Germans (even in WW1 & 2 they didn't do that shit!!!) Did the Japanese (NO! and they were locked up in WW2!!!)? Who blows people up and beheads people? Militant Islamists AND Cartel members from Mexico/Central America.....soooo yeah let's try to remember this going forward shall we?

Assimilation into the American/Western culture leads to this Melting pot you're crying about. Yeah, Americans want people who come to America to like their freedoms, enjoy their freedoms, appreciate that people fought and died to limit government and allow them the ability to think, act, do for themselves rather than dictate to them what is and is not acceptable. Problem is, some folks cling real tight to the beliefs of religious groups or political groups and when that happens there' friction.


The black person in Sacramento probably hadn't been castrated or been called "Slave" (in Arabic "Abed"...and yes that's still a term used to this day)...but hey let's move some folks to Riyadh where the penalty for stealing (I know, it's not jaywalking) is cutting off your hand...and as mentioned before, sure it's NOT jaywalking but women wearing pants, they get lashes.....for wearing pants dude.


"It's safer for a black person to cross the street in Riyadh" ....fucking ridiculous on it's face....yeah it was hella safe for the millions of black slaves who were castrated when they were taken to Saudi Arabia.....oh yeah, by the way....


Slavery is STILL A THING there .....but yeah we just can't tell which culture is better or worse, it's #unpossible

[brocktonblockbust]

No. No. No. No

Omar Mateen WAS NOT AN AMERICAN

BELIEVE ME.

[El Kabong]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariana-g...di-isis-claim/

23-year-old Salman Abedi.....just your average Briton really, fish & chips enthusiast, loved a game of footie (so long as no women were playing) Inch Allah....just your average run of the mill English "Lad"

[TitoFan]

Let me clear up a misconception you seem to have, Lyle.
Ready?


ISIS isn't a culture.


Yes, I know.... unbelievable, huh.

Regardless of their lofty title (State, indeed....), it's nothing more than a bunch of barbaric, overzealous thugs claiming that they represent a real culture. They don't. This fact alone crumbles all the examples you so gleefully trot out there to make your point.

[El Kabong]

Let me clear up a misconception you seem to have, Lyle.
Ready?


ISIS isn't a culture.


Yes, I know.... unbelievable, huh.

Regardless of their lofty title (State, indeed....), it's nothing more than a bunch of barbaric, overzealous thugs claiming that they represent a real culture. They don't. This fact alone crumbles all the examples you so gleefully trot out there to make your point.

Oh it's "unbelievable" alright.....I bring up Saudi Arabia ISIS isn't a culture., I bring up Indonesia ISIS isn't a culture., I bring up Syria ISIS isn't a culture., I bring up Bangladesh ISIS isn't a culture., I bring up the Taliban ISIS isn't a culture. ....unbelievable doesn't even begin to describe it TitoFan, it's fucking sad that this is how far one will go to simply disagree with me. It's sad.


Keep those eyes closed, pay no attention to any terrorist attacks of the past 20 or so years, it's NOT Islam, I mean how could we ever tell? How can we tell? it's impossible to tell.


Who is throwing gays off of roofs?

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL

Who is caning women who wear pants?

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL

Who is chopping heads off of non-believer infidels?

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL


Maybe YOU personally feel better thinking IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL if one culture is better than another, but I am betting if you were personally faced with the situation of being gay or a woman in one of those nations, you MIGHT, MAYBE, POSSIBLY have different feelings....but hell what am I saying? IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL

[El Kabong]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/two-men-...23-gwbeof.html

Two men receive 83 lashes for gay sex in Indonesian province of Aceh




It's just.....I mean........it's IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL

[Beanz]

Lyle give it a rest. There are 22 families for whom their kids will not be coming home and you want to win an internet argument? You didn't even know the difference between Hindus and Sikhs, do you really think all seven people disagreeing with you are idiots ? You have the cheek to post a video about the Saudi Slave trade whilst saying zero, zilch, nothing about Trump being in public cahoots with that very country. Nothing about the laughable idea that he is somehow making a stand against terrorism by supporting that regime with billions of dollars?

There are billions of Musilims so of course some are backwards , regressive and horrible bastards. There is also overwhelming evidence that ISIS and their operatives are incredibly bad Muslims by any subjective judgment. Secular drug taking, alcohol drinking, extra marital sex indulging bad Muslims to the point where most Muslims would consider them secular. When not mentally deficient they are often not only not devout, but also very vocal about responding to the military occupation and constant bombing of a country they may not have even visited let alone lived in. You can therefore not extrapolate from them a judgment of Islam being an inferior culture to Christianity which is what you really want to say.

If you want to say Islam is an inferior culture to American culture then you are comparing apples to oranges.

[El Kabong]

Lyle give it a rest. There are 22 families for whom their kids will not be coming home and you want to win an internet argument? You didn't even know the difference between Hindus and Sikhs, do you really think all seven people disagreeing with you are idiots ? You have the cheek to post a video about the Saudi Slave trade whilst saying zero, zilch, nothing about Trump being in public cahoots with that very country. Nothing about the laughable idea that he is somehow making a stand against terrorism by supporting that regime with billions of dollars?

There are billions of Musilims so of course some are backwards , regressive and horrible bastards. There is also overwhelming evidence that ISIS and their operatives are incredibly bad Muslims by any subjective judgment. Secular drug taking, alcohol drinking, extra marital sex indulging bad Muslims to the point where most Muslims would consider them secular. When not mentally deficient they are often not only not devout, but also very vocal about responding to the military occupation and constant bombing of a country they may not have even visited let alone lived in. You can therefore not extrapolate from them a judgment of Islam being an inferior culture to Christianity which is what you really want to say.

If you want to say Islam is an inferior culture to American culture then you are comparing apples to oranges.

@Beanz, I expect nothing less from you....that's pathetic. Don't get a nosebleed standing on top of those coffins shining that virtue signal, you are a real piece of shit.

Hindus and Sikhs ain't really the issue here seeing how neither are chopping folks up or tossing gays off of rooftops or bombing innocent people....or could you tell? I hear that it's impossible to tell which groups are doing BAD and which groups are not doing bad.

I think 7 people disagreeing with me are delightfully ignorant of what is happening OR they don't want to get in trouble for naming the problem.


"There are billions of Musilims...." For the billionth fucking time you dumb fuck nobody, that's myself, and anyone else who cares to be included in this argument with me, has EVER....(read the words again cocksucker) has EVER said "All Muslims are _____".....it's Militant Islamists, Wahhabiists, ISIS, Al Qaeda....do you want me to parse my words even more? You seem more worried about my language than the actual terrorism, and that is kinda shitty, but your priorities are what they are.

"There is also overwhelming evidence that ISIS and their operatives are incredibly bad Muslims"...... it's not my job to judge the piety of Muslims, I honestly don't give a flying fuck how pious they are or are not. What is it that you wish to have happen here? Do you want me to say that Islam is a religion of Peace and that a teeny tiny group of people have bastardized a great religion for their own gains? Or would you rather me tell the truth which is it's NOT a small tiny group of Muslims who say/believe "Death to apostates" or "death to infidels" it's rather large numbers (according to many research polls) and it's something that the world would be better served if we woke up one day, faced it down and said "No more".......No you may not stone to death a rape victim, no you may not cut the hand off of a thief, no you may not lash women for wearing pants, no you may not throw gays off of rooftops! It is not just the victims of the bombing in Manchester and the victims of the next bombing or the next or the next, it's the entire world....you think people living in Raqqa where the Wahhabi Vice patrols/"Religious Police" go around saying "Oh, your woman is showing a bit of ankle, fix that or we'll have to cane her" enjoy that shit? I don't know, maybe they do enjoy that all I know is I didn't fucking sign up for that shit and it's not going to be accepted here in the West if I have anything to say about it......maybe you'll accept it one day or maybe you already have, I don't know, but it ain't going to be me.


If it helps, leave religion out of it....1 culture is live and let live, another culture is it's our way or the highway.....but hey what am I saying it is CLEARLY impossible to tell....I put up videos showing the atrocities committed by the "group that is totes not Muslim cuz they do drugs and all" and what's your response? "That's disgusting, MODS move this, women and children can see this, take this down".....go call teacher on me again.

[TitoFan]

Lyle, is it that difficult to admit that your opinion may be colored by the fact that you've never known any other way of life? Do you really feel that most decent Muslims living over there are looking at the U.S. and saying... "Geeez, I'd really rather live other there." Do you really think there isn't the slightest possibility whatsoever that some decent, law-abiding Muslims in that part of the world are fully aware of the differences in culture and say... "All things considered, I like our culture better." See... you're perfectly within your bounds (and in fact should be expected) to like your own culture better. It's what you're used to.

Let's look this way instead of that way. Let's imagine a perfectly decent, law-abiding Muslim looking at the news and saying stuff like:


"I can't believe the way they allow people to belong to hate organizations like the Skinheads, Neo-Nazis, KKK, White Supremacists.... and they can say and do whatever they like."

"I can't believe black people are treated so badly by law enforcement over there, to the point where black people find it necessary to form protest organizations and take to the streets."

"I can't believe people's rights are protected to the extreme that they can say whatever the hell they want about anything and anybody."



Now.... isn't it possible that one of those people looking in this direction, when asked the same question, might answer that their own culture is better than ours? Once again, there's extremists in every culture. They give their own culture a bad name, and makes it look bad in the eyes of people from other cultures.