Pitty-Pat Flurries vs Power Combos

[Gandalf]

Maybe Oscar did some conning, but I don't know about that. My field is more Calzaghe really.

[TitoFan]

You're veering off course, Miles. The thread isn't about comparing JC's volume of punches with anyone else's. We all know volume punching was Joe's trademark. The thread is about effective punching vs. useless flurries designed not to hurt but to impress. I didn't say JC did it all the time. But he did do it. Against Manfredo... against BHop... it was just one of his techniques. Different fighters have different styles. Some try to overwhelm you with volume. Others pick and choose their spots. They may not throw 1000 punches per round... but the mere 50 they throw they make them count. Again, beauty, the eye of the beholder, and all that.

I also mentioned the timing of these flurries. Oscar was pretty adept at doing them toward the end of rounds, in order to try and steal the round. Again... it's a technique. If it sways the judges, more power to you.

[mikeeod]

Have to disagree with both Oscar and Joe being pity patt combo artists. Oscar was like Roy, where they would throw combos and vary the power and speed to throw the other fighter off and open them up. Joe had bad hands towards the end, so he had to be more cautious and selective as to when he would throw the hard shots.

Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom was the first fighter I recall throwing what we used to refer to as "shoe shine" combos. Ray Leonard used the shoe shine flurry to steal the fight vs. Hagler, but prior to that Ray would put some heat on those combos, so I don't really see him as a pitty pat guy.

Camacho, later in his career, turned into a PPF guy, but you saw how ineffective that was vs. Chavez, Oscar, and Tito. Great analogy/example using the Toney/Body Snatcher fight, and to a degree the Ali-Foreman fight. Ali's chin and conditioning allowed him to hang on to stop an exhausted foreman. That being said, if George had paid even a little attention to pace, he dominates Ali and wins the fight (shows how great Ali was at getting in people's heads).

[TitoFan]

Have to disagree with both Oscar and Joe being pity patt combo artists. Oscar was like Roy, where they would throw combos and vary the power and speed to throw the other fighter off and open them up. Joe had bad hands towards the end, so he had to be more cautious and selective as to when he would throw the hard shots.

Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom was the first fighter I recall throwing what we used to refer to as "shoe shine" combos. Ray Leonard used the shoe shine flurry to steal the fight vs. Hagler, but prior to that Ray would put some heat on those combos, so I don't really see him as a pitty pat guy.

Camacho, later in his career, turned into a PPF guy, but you saw how ineffective that was vs. Chavez, Oscar, and Tito. Great analogy/example using the Toney/Body Snatcher fight, and to a degree the Ali-Foreman fight. Ali's chin and conditioning allowed him to hang on to stop an exhausted foreman. That being said, if George had paid even a little attention to pace, he dominates Ali and wins the fight (shows how great Ali was at getting in people's heads).

Good points all, but I'll stick to my opinion on both Oscar and Joe. No doubt Oscar had the ability to sit down on his punches and throw good combinations. But many times he was guilty of the "showy flurry" which did nothing. Same with Joe. Roy I never saw do that. Roy was that rare individual who would throw lightning fast combos, but almost always with power and intent. You mentioned Leonard vs Hagler and I couldn't agree more. Matter of fact that is my least favorite of the SRL fights. Hagler should've had a better fight plan coming in to neutralize that. Sugar Ray doesn't get away with that a second time around. Ali could certainly do "pitty pat", but the Foreman fight is not a good example. Ali had the perfect strategy, letting Foreman stupidly punch himself out, but on the few occasions Ali landed on Foreman they were mostly good shots... perfectly placed and spaced out. I also agree about Camacho. He certainly was guilty of the PPF's later in his career. I remember seeing some of his early fights, and he had that incredible ability to punch lightning fast, with power in both hands.

[Spicoli]

Have to disagree with both Oscar and Joe being pity patt combo artists. Oscar was like Roy, where they would throw combos and vary the power and speed to throw the other fighter off and open them up. Joe had bad hands towards the end, so he had to be more cautious and selective as to when he would throw the hard shots.

Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom was the first fighter I recall throwing what we used to refer to as "shoe shine" combos. Ray Leonard used the shoe shine flurry to steal the fight vs. Hagler, but prior to that Ray would put some heat on those combos, so I don't really see him as a pitty pat guy.

Camacho, later in his career, turned into a PPF guy, but you saw how ineffective that was vs. Chavez, Oscar, and Tito. Great analogy/example using the Toney/Body Snatcher fight, and to a degree the Ali-Foreman fight. Ali's chin and conditioning allowed him to hang on to stop an exhausted foreman. That being said, if George had paid even a little attention to pace, he dominates Ali and wins the fight (shows how great Ali was at getting in people's heads).

As much as it pains me Oscar had combination legitimacy. I voted against him and that golden express massive hype since debut at the Forum but his left hook and fairly fast hands at best shook or dropped most when he was top notch. He was a tenacious attacker early on. Mosley looked sturdiest as he often did but pre fools errand of chasing 160 lbs and aftermath, Oscar would get any fighters respect.