Ward vs Calzaghe

[Primo Carnera]

Calzaghe can dig deep and find a way to win due to him being versatile, extremely fast , extremely fit and also a cold hearted bastard when a fight is going against him. He absolutely hates to lose.

He's a mirror image of some of Wards characteristics, making for a great matchup.

Calzaghe nicks it on points

Ward isn't alien to making adjustments either. Like you said, BHOP gave Calzaghe problems, so a version 10-15 years younger might just beat him. Ward for me.

You are Italian that is sacrilegious!

I know mate, I went to watch Joe live a few times as well and I like him, but just trying to tell it as it is.
Having said that , Joe would've beaten every other British SMW there has been, hands down.
So how does it feel that Britain's Rea test ever SMW was in fact ITALIAN? ������������

Mate, I know you say this kind of thing all the time, and I THINK it's a bit tongue-in-cheek, but would you truly consider Calzaghe to be more of an Italian than a Welshman?
For most people he's a Brit/Welsh with Italian heritage.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen logic of yours in regards to other fighters that if applied to Calzaghe would preclude him being primarily 'Italian' .

Mate, you're right, it is a bit tongue in cheek, but I do disagree with you slightly. I see him more as Welsh/Italian , British doesn't come into it. He clearly feels that way as well.
He used to have the Welsh and Italian flags on his shorts , but I never saw a Union Jack.
This is the age old theme where if he's Welsh (or Scottish or Irish) and he's unsuccessful, then he's Welsh. But if he's Welsh and successful, then he's BRITISH.
Whereas if he's English and successful, he's English.
He's clearly Welsh and I'm not really trying to claim him for Italy, that's for him to do himself.
But I know for an absolute fact that he feels more Italian than he does English or even British.

Despite being born in England and Wales being in Britain.

Nice one @Beanz. How about a bit of light reading for you. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oly...rn-abroad.html
After you've read that, I wonder if you could let me know the nationality of the sportsmen listed below, going by your own rules of eligibility .
Mo Farah, Chris Froome, Bradley Wiggins, Justin Rose, Mike Catt, Mako Vunipola, Manu Tuilagi, Toby Faletau, John Barnes, Owen Hargreaves, Greg Rusedski and let's not even mention Cricketers.
Trust me , that list was concocted in about 5 minutes, I'm sure I could add many,many more.
Remember this was YOUR line of reasoning. Have a nice day.

By any criteria he is British. He was born in Britain, grew up in Britain, fought as Both an Amateur and Pro in Britain as a Brit with a British Passport. Even his dad moved from Italy to England when he was two so quite why you have such a problem with him being British is a bit beyond me. He has not even ever (to the best of my knowledge) represented Italy so you are just clutching at straws now.

Mate , I have no problem, I really don't. It seems you do though, as your posts are getting longer and more desperate, yet never addressing the FACTS that I put forward.
I conceded that he is clearly Welsh. All I said was that HE feels more Italian than British.
He wore a Welsh and Italian Flags on his shorts, but never a Union Jack.
Why are you so desperate to claim a part of him? Because he was born in London?
I posted contradictory examples, but you chose not to reply.
It's funny, I never hear anyone talk about Kerry Hope being British.....well not since he lost his European title anyway.������

Claim a part of him? Do you have shares in him then? I am British. He is British. What is your problem with people being British? I have never heard him say he feels more Italian than British are you going to tell me that the Welsh and and Scots don't feel British next? The Anglo Saxons used to call where I live West Wales so I would like to claim one fifth of him if we are going Dutch.

Mate, no point me even replying. You never address any points in my post. You pick a word or a sentence , twist it and jump on it. My problem with you insisting on his "Britishness" is because it's what English people do to claim a tiny scrap of credit for him. Yet most English people couldn't give 2 fucks for the "non-winning" Scots or Welsh and most Scots and Welsh fucking can't stand the English, FACT.
1. Calzaghe feels Welsh first and foremost , Italian Second , FACT. He wears the Italian flag on his shorts, not the Union Jack, and I have heard him talk about the 2006 World Cup and supporting Italy etc. etc. Not England, even though he's "British"
2. You think the Welsh and Scots feel British? Next you'll be telling me the Welsh and Scots love the English!
Please don't tell me you've never heard Scots and Welsh people say " when we win we're British, but when we lose, we're Scottish or Welsh.
3. This whole "British" thing , what does it mean anyway? You don't see me fucking licking Iniesta's ass because he's a "Mediterannean cousin" .
The only time you use the British Card is when the English one has failed mate.
And don't try to tell me it ain't true, because I've seen it with my own eyes and ears.

I am English so please don't tell me how I FEEL about the Scots and the Welsh. Incredibly lame and irrelevant argument for you to keep going on about. We get it YOU have a massive chip on your shoulder with the English because you just swallow massive generalizations about the English and propagate them to make yourself feel special and authentic. Woopy Doo. I Love the westcountry, Britain , Europe etc and am the grandson of immigrants so I am not hung up on just being English and have no problem with the taffs and jocks.

Haha. Yet again , not responding to the points made. If anything I was saying how THEY FEEL about you, not how YOU FEEL about them.
16th October, 2002. Wales v Italy euro championship qualifier at the Millennium stadium. Wales win 2-1 . One of the biggest shocks in Football. As we are leaving the stadium , we're shell shocked , all the Wales fans were singing was "are you watching England?". During the game, all they can sing is "Stand up if you hate England!
I've seen the very same at Hampden for Scotland v Italy. This isn't me with a chip on my shoulder, this is blind arrogance from you, and you know it's true , that's why you skirt over the points.
Anyway, apologies for going way off topic, this isn't for the boxing pages.

[Beanz]

Joe Calzaghe is British Primo. Whether you like it or he likes it or I like it is irrelevant. I have always been a big fan like most British boxing fans. He fought in Britain for British titles ffs. All this because I pointed out he was born in England. 😁

[Primo Carnera]

Wasn't Calzaghe called the Italian Dragon or something like that?

Yes he was. He was also called "The Pride of Wales" .

But never the pride of Britain, eh?

[Primo Carnera]

Joe Calzaghe is British Primo. Whether you like it or he likes it or I like it is irrelevant. I have always been a big fan like most British boxing fans. He fought in Britain for British titles ffs. All this because I pointed out he was born in England. 😁

Wow! Are you still trying to convince yourself? I've got a feeling you'll be taking out a custody lawsuit next! #desperatetoclaimapartofhim.

[TitoFan]

Damn, this is worse than the fights over Lennox.

Down here in P.R., we thankfully don't have that kind of problem. Our neighboring Caribbean island Dominican Republic is but 90 miles away... but we don't get our boxers confused. They have equally good baseball players, but their boxers suck. Cuba is a bit further away, but again we don't fight over fighters. Cubans are Cubans, and Boricuas are Boricuas.

Calzaghe's gonna be ripped apart in this tug-o'-war.

[Beanz]

Joe Calzaghe is British Primo. Whether you like it or he likes it or I like it is irrelevant. I have always been a big fan like most British boxing fans. He fought in Britain for British titles ffs. All this because I pointed out he was born in England. 😁

Wow! Are you still trying to convince yourself? I've got a feeling you'll be taking out a custody lawsuit next! #desperatetoclaimapartofhim.

It's not even a disputed fact by anyone but you. Most Italians, that is people born in Italy, do not consider Calzaghe Italian why would they? He was born in England, lived his entire life in Wales and fought the majority of his fights in Britain including fighting for British titles. A couple of the boxers i work with down here spar regularly with the Selbys and in boxing that is how it works, you don't not support other British boxers just because they are not English. If Calzaghe had fought Froch I would have watched with interest but wanted Joe to win, so your disingenuous rubbish about English fight fans not supporting boxers like Buchanan, Burns,Watt,Maccarenelli,Rees, Mcguigan, Frampton etc until they are successful is daft. Not only have they consistently bought tickets and turned up to watch in droves but your argument makes no sense. There has been and continues to be way more top notch world level English boxers than Welsh, Scottish,Northern Irish and Italian put together, so why would the English be glory hunters like the British plonkers who wear Brazil,Italy and Dutch football shirts when the World cup comes around. Reaching mate.Joe beats Ward. Output, but more importantly avoiding Andres traps and much better feet. In and out. Ward will not be able to lean on Stamina with a guy who grew up running those Welsh hills. Points win for the Brit.

[Master]

Primo is the new Ross.

[Beanz]

primo is the new ross.

bwaahaha! 😁

[ryanman]

Yeah I would predominately describe Calzaghe as Welsh. But in boxing terms we do group things as British. Not just for the non-English. Joshua is a described as British (or UK). Hatton would have been the 'first British fighter to win Ring magazine etc'. You never hear 'Englishman Anthony Joshua' for instance.

Primo, the 'when he wins he's British, when he loses he's Welsh/Scottish' etc thing is a bit misleading in my view.

Of course I've heard it said but consider this -

How often is Murray described as 'Scot Andy Murray' or 'Scotland's Andy Murray'. Very often.
Or, indeed, 'Welshman Joe Calzaghe'.
Or Scotland's Chris Hoy. etc etc.

When a British sportsman is from not-England their denomination of Britishness is always very central to their description. Which is fine by me by the way.

On the other hand when would you ever hear 'Britain's Lewis Hamilton' described as 'England's Lewis Hamilton'. You just don't. Or 'England's Anthony Joshua'. Nope. The Brownlees? British (with a strong emphasis on Yorkshire). Bradley Wiggins was 'the first British rider to win TDF'.

You very rarely hear English sportsmen described as 'English'. Except of course if they are competing for England (so we're talking team sports or rare individual sports like Golf where they compete under that flag). Again, that's fine with me.

Someone mentioned Bale? Well of course claiming him as British, in sports terms, would be odd. His endevours and successes are not part of any 'British' success. Likewise claiming a Welsh rugby player as British (unless we are talking about the Lions!) would also be odd. Where there are national teams competing as England, Wales, Scotland and N.I then 'British' identity is obviously superseded. On the other hand, take the Olympics for example where it's very much Britain then the particular national identity is irrelevant.

For me it's all quite intuitive.

Regarding nationality generally then for me it's not a one size fits all.
Place of birth is important but not the be all and end all.
For instance my friend was born in Papua New Guinea as his parents were hippies working out there. He sure as hell isn't Papua New Guinean!
Parentage is important but again not everything. You may be born in England to Polish parents but live here all your life and very much be 'English'.
Also heritage is often split. And how far back do you go?
In the US strong emphasis is but on heritage. So much so that people that haven't had a relative in Ireland for 150 years and couldn't point it out on a map describe themselves as 'Irish'. By the same token they would very much still consider themselves 'American'. But to them 'Irish' would be their denomination of 'American'.

Nationality is complicated and a mixture of; birthplace, where raised, heritage, parentage, self-identify and more.

[Primo Carnera]

Joe Calzaghe is British Primo. Whether you like it or he likes it or I like it is irrelevant. I have always been a big fan like most British boxing fans. He fought in Britain for British titles ffs. All this because I pointed out he was born in England. 😁

Wow! Are you still trying to convince yourself? I've got a feeling you'll be taking out a custody lawsuit next! #desperatetoclaimapartofhim.

It's not even a disputed fact by anyone but you. Most Italians, that is people born in Italy, do not consider Calzaghe Italian why would they? He was born in England, lived his entire life in Wales and fought the majority of his fights in Britain including fighting for British titles. A couple of the boxers i work with down here spar regularly with the Selbys and in boxing that is how it works, you don't not support other British boxers just because they are not English. If Calzaghe had fought Froch I would have watched with interest but wanted Joe to win, so your disingenuous rubbish about English fight fans not supporting boxers like Buchanan, Burns,Watt,Maccarenelli,Rees, Mcguigan, Frampton etc until they are successful is daft. Not only have they consistently bought tickets and turned up to watch in droves but your argument makes no sense. There has been and continues to be way more top notch world level English boxers than Welsh, Scottish,Northern Irish and Italian put together, so why would the English be glory hunters like the British plonkers who wear Brazil,Italy and Dutch football shirts when the World cup comes around. Reaching mate.Joe beats Ward. Output, but more importantly avoiding Andres traps and much better feet. In and out. Ward will not be able to lean on Stamina with a guy who grew up running those Welsh hills. Points win for the Brit.

Tell you what @Beanz, I'll leave you to it. you keep ignoring what I've actually said and answer with what you THINK I've said if it makes you happy. And while you're at it , carry on ignoring all the questions and points put forward. Crack on!
I'll leave you with one little contradictory quote you posted to prove my point. You said how should I tell YOU how you feel about the Scots and Welsh, but then YOU have the gall to Tell Calzaghe what he is despite what HE FEELS.
I feel it would be a mature thing to do to stop this idiotic to ing and fro ing, so I will take the first step and stop posting on this matter. If you wish to carry on, be my guest.

[ryanman]

[/QUOTE]

Mo Farah, Chris Froome, Bradley Wiggins, Justin Rose, Mike Catt, Mako Vunipola, Manu Tuilagi, Toby Faletau, John Barnes, Owen Hargreaves, Greg Rusedski and let's not even mention Cricketers.
[/QUOTE]

The name's you've listed here Primo are good examples of a template for nationality being impossible.

So, let's take Bradley Wiggins. You've included him because he was born in Belgium. Yet his parents were in Belgium as his dad was a professional cyclist. He was raised in St Helens, is clearly a Lancashire lad and is 100% British IMO. His Belgium link is about as relevant as my mate's Papua New Guinea link.

On the other hand Greg Rusedski. Now, I liked the bloke, but most people wouldn't consider him to be a British man. I mean, he just isn't. He's a Canadian with links to Britain that played under the British flag. As such I supported him. But, is he British like Wiggins? No.
For someone like Mo Farah, being a refugee at a young age, his nationality is mostly defined by his own self-identity. For him, he is British. For me, he's British. Somalian roots of course but he proudly represents his country. In fact, in 2012 when some wag questioned whether he should run for Somalia Mo was rightly outraged.
It's all a rich tapestry

[ryanman]

Sorry fucked the quote there. Bit rusty.

[ryanman]

Joe Calzaghe is British Primo. Whether you like it or he likes it or I like it is irrelevant. I have always been a big fan like most British boxing fans. He fought in Britain for British titles ffs. All this because I pointed out he was born in England. ������

Wow! Are you still trying to convince yourself? I've got a feeling you'll be taking out a custody lawsuit next! #desperatetoclaimapartofhim.

It's not even a disputed fact by anyone but you. Most Italians, that is people born in Italy, do not consider Calzaghe Italian why would they? He was born in England, lived his entire life in Wales and fought the majority of his fights in Britain including fighting for British titles. A couple of the boxers i work with down here spar regularly with the Selbys and in boxing that is how it works, you don't not support other British boxers just because they are not English. If Calzaghe had fought Froch I would have watched with interest but wanted Joe to win, so your disingenuous rubbish about English fight fans not supporting boxers like Buchanan, Burns,Watt,Maccarenelli,Rees, Mcguigan, Frampton etc until they are successful is daft. Not only have they consistently bought tickets and turned up to watch in droves but your argument makes no sense. There has been and continues to be way more top notch world level English boxers than Welsh, Scottish,Northern Irish and Italian put together, so why would the English be glory hunters like the British plonkers who wear Brazil,Italy and Dutch football shirts when the World cup comes around. Reaching mate.Joe beats Ward. Output, but more importantly avoiding Andres traps and much better feet. In and out. Ward will not be able to lean on Stamina with a guy who grew up running those Welsh hills. Points win for the Brit.

Tell you what @Beanz, I'll leave you to it. you keep ignoring what I've actually said and answer with what you THINK I've said if it makes you happy. And while you're at it , carry on ignoring all the questions and points put forward. Crack on!
I'll leave you with one little contradictory quote you posted to prove my point. You said how should I tell YOU how you feel about the Scots and Welsh, but then YOU have the gall to Tell Calzaghe what he is despite what HE FEELS.
I feel it would be a mature thing to do to stop this idiotic to ing and fro ing, so I will take the first step and stop posting on this matter. If you wish to carry on, be my guest.

Primo mate, I will just say this, with Calzaghe you are putting a lot of weight on what HE feels to define his nationality. But I distinctly remember you ignoring that aspect when it came to Lennox Lewis. People pointed out that LL was adamant he is British but for you that didn't matter.

(as an aside I'm sure there are many many quotes of Calzaghe referring himself in terms of Britishness. 'The first British fighter to do this' etc).

[Beanz]

Joe Calzaghe is British Primo. Whether you like it or he likes it or I like it is irrelevant. I have always been a big fan like most British boxing fans. He fought in Britain for British titles ffs. All this because I pointed out he was born in England. ������

Wow! Are you still trying to convince yourself? I've got a feeling you'll be taking out a custody lawsuit next! #desperatetoclaimapartofhim.

It's not even a disputed fact by anyone but you. Most Italians, that is people born in Italy, do not consider Calzaghe Italian why would they? He was born in England, lived his entire life in Wales and fought the majority of his fights in Britain including fighting for British titles. A couple of the boxers i work with down here spar regularly with the Selbys and in boxing that is how it works, you don't not support other British boxers just because they are not English. If Calzaghe had fought Froch I would have watched with interest but wanted Joe to win, so your disingenuous rubbish about English fight fans not supporting boxers like Buchanan, Burns,Watt,Maccarenelli,Rees, Mcguigan, Frampton etc until they are successful is daft. Not only have they consistently bought tickets and turned up to watch in droves but your argument makes no sense. There has been and continues to be way more top notch world level English boxers than Welsh, Scottish,Northern Irish and Italian put together, so why would the English be glory hunters like the British plonkers who wear Brazil,Italy and Dutch football shirts when the World cup comes around. Reaching mate.Joe beats Ward. Output, but more importantly avoiding Andres traps and much better feet. In and out. Ward will not be able to lean on Stamina with a guy who grew up running those Welsh hills. Points win for the Brit.

Tell you what @Beanz, I'll leave you to it. you keep ignoring what I've actually said and answer with what you THINK I've said if it makes you happy. And while you're at it , carry on ignoring all the questions and points put forward. Crack on!
I'll leave you with one little contradictory quote you posted to prove my point. You said how should I tell YOU how you feel about the Scots and Welsh, but then YOU have the gall to Tell Calzaghe what he is despite what HE FEELS.
I feel it would be a mature thing to do to stop this idiotic to ing and fro ing, so I will take the first step and stop posting on this matter. If you wish to carry on, be my guest.

I have never heard Calzaghe saying he does not feel British. Ever. I am not telling Joe anything.

[erics44]

in a fair fight joe would win on volume, perfect style to beat ward, particularly in his prime

in America with 3 American judges and an American ref Ward would win

in wales with 3 welsh judges and a welsh ref Joe would win