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Thread: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Tito, my post was a measured and considered one. The US elite themselves knew the war was pointless and Johnson didn't want to lose face so he EXPANDED the genocide of freedom fighters and sacrificed more innocent American people. It was something that should have been learned from. But no war after war after to just waste money and let the Taliban return meanwhile Bin Laden is allegedly in Pakistan. Allegedly.

    My stance is not biased. I apply the same to the indiscriminate killing of civilians in any war. Using nukes to 'teach the Russians' was deprorable. It was a gross experiment. Can you imagine what that is like? You are lucky to be vaporised. Those not covered in burns, vomiting white gunk, dying of cancers. No, it is degenerate and cowardly.

    You might have noticed a pattern but I oppose all of these wars. Brock is right on that point. Anyone now signing up has no excuse of naivety. Viernam was a monstrosity. Rolling Heavy Thunder was described as one of the most self defeating strategies of all time. It also broke America economically. After Vietnam completely abandoning dollar and gold. Now all these years later 20 trillion in debt and the solution is to 'build airplanes' and 'build more nukes'.


    Who's in a "tizzy" now?

    My post wasn't even directed at you and merely made the distinction between hating wars, and hating those young boys who get/got drafted to go over and fight in Vietnam. You seem to have gone off on some tangent rant, to the point of declaring your point unbiased. WTF? What exactly did you read in my post that made it necessary to defend yourself?
    Not in a tizzy at all, but making a series of observations and points backed up by the historical record. Is there anything you disagree with?

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Ah, it is a misunderstanding. You probably see my entire post as calling you out, but only the first part was that. The rest was other things in the thread such as what I saw from Walrus. Don't take it so personally Tito, I agree with some of your post.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    South Vietnam was a series of MANY dictatorships opposed by the general public. The support of that only made tge Viet Cong grow and grow. If the US had got out in 1965 Vietnam would have united, had its elections and yes Ho Chi Minh would have won and could have been the end of it. But alas, no. 'Gotta fight those Commies'. To an American any move for Independence is 'Commie' and seemingly worth the death of millions along the way. What are you even doing there? Utter tragedy.
    Opening fire on Buddhist Monks didn't help. The deadline for North and South elections had come and gone. It really wasn't about fearing Communism in the North with small scale attacks on U.S backed rotating Governments. We've sat back and watched small blips on a Globe tear themselves apart and hardly missed sleep. Shit we even did it to ourselves. It was about the Chinese and Soviet backing for the resistance that began a decade prior to the Viet Cong coming along. In some ways it felt like WW2 never actually ended and once they tested their own nukes it was on. To not have lived it or in the time when kids practiced for Nuclear detonation in Anytown U.S.A limits judgment. Crazy thing is Ho Chi minh declared Independence just weeks after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Vietnam was fucked up but innocents on all sides paid the ultimate price. It hits home very close. Children being the constant and most confounding.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.
    I know and Donald Trump needs to calm down with that Twitter. Fighters fighting fighters is totally cool. Killing innocent people is not. In Japan you crossed the line. In Vietnam you chaps lost the plot. Surely you can see that. In Vietnam the Japanese were kicked out and Ho Chi Minh requested his independence. Totally snubbed. The Nazi's had to be beaten, as did the Japanese, but like I say you don't carry out genocide to prove a political point. That is known as evil too.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.
    I know and Donald Trump needs to calm down with that Twitter. Fighters fighting fighters is totally cool. Killing innocent people is not. In Japan you crossed the line. In Vietnam you chaps lost the plot. Surely you can see that. In Vietnam the Japanese were kicked out and Ho Chi Minh requested his independence. Totally snubbed. The Nazi's had to be beaten, as did the Japanese, but like I say you don't carry out genocide to prove a political point. That is known as evil too.
    That’s all the Nazis and Japan did was genocide

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.
    I know and Donald Trump needs to calm down with that Twitter. Fighters fighting fighters is totally cool. Killing innocent people is not. In Japan you crossed the line. In Vietnam you chaps lost the plot. Surely you can see that. In Vietnam the Japanese were kicked out and Ho Chi Minh requested his independence. Totally snubbed. The Nazi's had to be beaten, as did the Japanese, but like I say you don't carry out genocide to prove a political point. That is known as evil too.
    That’s all the Nazis and Japan did was genocide
    That does not make it okay for you to do the same. You lead by example, not terror. In Vietnam all that needed to happen was for elections to take place as soon as possible. It was agreed by all that 2 years would be enough. Minh would likely have dominated and that's all she wrote in Vietnam. American involvement by pretty much all accounts made everything worse. Even US troops were saying things like 'We don't know why we are here'. France said stop. The UK said stop. Johnson would not listen. His ego had taken over. He was sacrificing children on the other side of the world for no better reason than to fight the 'bogeyman'. Would he go and fight? Would Trump? Would Bush? Would Clinton? No, they would sooner send working class and white and black kids. People who have no voice.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Anyways, I am not holding you personally responsible or anything Walrus, just expressing my opinion based on my own research and readings. I just think it was a very bad situation and I am sure you understand my position. Vietnam today remains a market based Communist country. Nothing was gained or achieved by any of it. I think the same way about Afghanistan where the Taliban refuses to go away. I think the same about Iraq which was based on lies and failed to consider just how divided a country Iraq was already. It just did not need to happen. There was no reason it could not have been managed peacefully. There were no WMD. This does not look good and I am sure like with the chaps in Vietnam you end up questioning 'What is this for?' and more so when the truth finally comes out like The Gulf of Tonkin, or no WMD, or what have you.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Not my argument, but I don't think walrus is defending Vietnam, nor has anyone on this thread as far as I can tell. Personally I think it was a huge waste of time, resources, and human lives. It's the soldiers that went over there I mostly feel sorry for. Most of them were drafted, and were teenagers or just past teenage stage. The party line on the war was to keep Communism from spreading to South Vietnam. Flimsy excuse... the U.S. should've left well enough alone. One of those wars that stick out as not having a legitimate purpose. It also dragged and dragged and dragged. Finally the U.S. ended up withdrawing and you're right..... nothing was gained. A lot of deaths for nothing.

    Your real point of contention is with the nukes dropped in Japan. I see both your points on that one, but if pushed I would probably side with Miles. The argument that a conventional war would've been drawn out and bloody is a good argument, but still fails to fully consider all possible scenarios. And why Japan and not Germany? 'Cause Germany is surrounded by other European countries? That would be a weak argument. Why didn't the U.S. just fly over and drop a big Fat Man on Germany to make the Nazis surrender quicker and avoid more life losses? I don't know...... the whole Atomic Bomb thing is just a bit much for me. Two entire cities incinerated. I think the U.S. was capable of a huge push against Japan that would've eventually defeated them. At the very least, why was Nagasaki bombed? I've read up on it and seen a lot of BS answers, but none of them seem to justify that second act of carnage. Don't get me wrong, I know the U.S. had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. I just have to ask whether it was really necessary to obliterate two cities.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    No, no, that is not Miles" "real point of contention" .... It's as clear as day what his point is. America fucking blew it enormously with it's tough guy/crossing the line/losing the plot EVIL SHIT on so many levels and fronts over the past 70 years it's GUARANTEED BAD KARMA which even an imbecile can see is happening to America now since 2001.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Not my argument, but I don't think walrus is defending Vietnam, nor has anyone on this thread as far as I can tell. Personally I think it was a huge waste of time, resources, and human lives. It's the soldiers that went over there I mostly feel sorry for. Most of them were drafted, and were teenagers or just past teenage stage. The party line on the war was to keep Communism from spreading to South Vietnam. Flimsy excuse... the U.S. should've left well enough alone. One of those wars that stick out as not having a legitimate purpose. It also dragged and dragged and dragged. Finally the U.S. ended up withdrawing and you're right..... nothing was gained. A lot of deaths for nothing.

    Your real point of contention is with the nukes dropped in Japan. I see both your points on that one, but if pushed I would probably side with Miles. The argument that a conventional war would've been drawn out and bloody is a good argument, but still fails to fully consider all possible scenarios. And why Japan and not Germany? 'Cause Germany is surrounded by other European countries? That would be a weak argument. Why didn't the U.S. just fly over and drop a big Fat Man on Germany to make the Nazis surrender quicker and avoid more life losses? I don't know...... the whole Atomic Bomb thing is just a bit much for me. Two entire cities incinerated. I think the U.S. was capable of a huge push against Japan that would've eventually defeated them. At the very least, why was Nagasaki bombed? I've read up on it and seen a lot of BS answers, but none of them seem to justify that second act of carnage. Don't get me wrong, I know the U.S. had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. I just have to ask whether it was really necessary to obliterate two cities.
    it is difficult for us to grasp. It was a world war in the 40’s and we are trying to judge it with today’s eyes. I’ve said it before here, no one hates war more than those who have actually been through it. There is no such thing as a good war, maybe in some cases good reasons for it but never is war good. You could call what happened in Germany even after the surrender genocide. The allies wanted to punish them and 100,000’s died of starvation as they continued to be punished. Bad shit all around

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Not my argument, but I don't think walrus is defending Vietnam, nor has anyone on this thread as far as I can tell. Personally I think it was a huge waste of time, resources, and human lives. It's the soldiers that went over there I mostly feel sorry for. Most of them were drafted, and were teenagers or just past teenage stage. The party line on the war was to keep Communism from spreading to South Vietnam. Flimsy excuse... the U.S. should've left well enough alone. One of those wars that stick out as not having a legitimate purpose. It also dragged and dragged and dragged. Finally the U.S. ended up withdrawing and you're right..... nothing was gained. A lot of deaths for nothing.

    Your real point of contention is with the nukes dropped in Japan. I see both your points on that one, but if pushed I would probably side with Miles. The argument that a conventional war would've been drawn out and bloody is a good argument, but still fails to fully consider all possible scenarios. And why Japan and not Germany? 'Cause Germany is surrounded by other European countries? That would be a weak argument. Why didn't the U.S. just fly over and drop a big Fat Man on Germany to make the Nazis surrender quicker and avoid more life losses? I don't know...... the whole Atomic Bomb thing is just a bit much for me. Two entire cities incinerated. I think the U.S. was capable of a huge push against Japan that would've eventually defeated them. At the very least, why was Nagasaki bombed? I've read up on it and seen a lot of BS answers, but none of them seem to justify that second act of carnage. Don't get me wrong, I know the U.S. had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. I just have to ask whether it was really necessary to obliterate two cities.
    it is difficult for us to grasp. It was a world war in the 40’s and we are trying to judge it with today’s eyes. I’ve said it before here, no one hates war more than those who have actually been through it. There is no such thing as a good war, maybe in some cases good reasons for it but never is war good. You could call what happened in Germany even after the surrender genocide. The allies wanted to punish them and 100,000’s died of starvation as they continued to be punished. Bad shit all around


    You got a good point there and none of us here can speak about that from personal experience (I think no one here is THAT old). But c'mon, just like we can say now that segregation was bad in the 50's and 60's, we can also say the dropping of nuclear bombs on two Japanese cities was bad also. Back in the 50's and 60's, different water fountains for whites and blacks was probably a normal, accepted thing. Nowadays it would be looked at with indignation and disbelief. Maybe in the framework of the 40's, dropping atomic bombs on Japan was a good thing due to the "reducing casualties in the end" argument. But looked at now, a counter argument can certainly be made. But still, that 2nd bomb.........

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Not my argument, but I don't think walrus is defending Vietnam, nor has anyone on this thread as far as I can tell. Personally I think it was a huge waste of time, resources, and human lives. It's the soldiers that went over there I mostly feel sorry for. Most of them were drafted, and were teenagers or just past teenage stage. The party line on the war was to keep Communism from spreading to South Vietnam. Flimsy excuse... the U.S. should've left well enough alone. One of those wars that stick out as not having a legitimate purpose. It also dragged and dragged and dragged. Finally the U.S. ended up withdrawing and you're right..... nothing was gained. A lot of deaths for nothing.

    Your real point of contention is with the nukes dropped in Japan. I see both your points on that one, but if pushed I would probably side with Miles. The argument that a conventional war would've been drawn out and bloody is a good argument, but still fails to fully consider all possible scenarios. And why Japan and not Germany? 'Cause Germany is surrounded by other European countries? That would be a weak argument. Why didn't the U.S. just fly over and drop a big Fat Man on Germany to make the Nazis surrender quicker and avoid more life losses? I don't know...... the whole Atomic Bomb thing is just a bit much for me. Two entire cities incinerated. I think the U.S. was capable of a huge push against Japan that would've eventually defeated them. At the very least, why was Nagasaki bombed? I've read up on it and seen a lot of BS answers, but none of them seem to justify that second act of carnage. Don't get me wrong, I know the U.S. had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. I just have to ask whether it was really necessary to obliterate two cities.
    it is difficult for us to grasp. It was a world war in the 40’s and we are trying to judge it with today’s eyes. I’ve said it before here, no one hates war more than those who have actually been through it. There is no such thing as a good war, maybe in some cases good reasons for it but never is war good. You could call what happened in Germany even after the surrender genocide. The allies wanted to punish them and 100,000’s died of starvation as they continued to be punished. Bad shit all around


    You got a good point there and none of us here can speak about that from personal experience (I think no one here is THAT old). But c'mon, just like we can say now that segregation was bad in the 50's and 60's, we can also say the dropping of nuclear bombs on two Japanese cities was bad also. Back in the 50's and 60's, different water fountains for whites and blacks was probably a normal, accepted thing. Nowadays it would be looked at with indignation and disbelief. Maybe in the framework of the 40's, dropping atomic bombs on Japan was a good thing due to the "reducing casualties in the end" argument. But looked at now, a counter argument can certainly be made. But still, that 2nd bomb.........
    I’m not sticking for the second bomb nor the first. It’s just people say it like we did it out of the blue. I’m not directing that at u tits just a general observation.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    Good to see we are not arguing, Tito. I think we are mostly on the same page on this. The Nagasaki bombing was a needless and cruel thing to do. I visited Nagasaki and the museum there is chilling. To see actual debris and the most horrific stories. A young Japanese child walked up to me and said 'Hello'. He was just a kid and kids like him were melted in that explosion. It really hits you to see school kids running around and people going about their work and to imagine that huge detonation taking place. I sat in the small park almost directly below where it exploded. Nagasaki is a lovely place. I don't see what any of those people living there did wrong. It was barbaric. I just think we can and should be a little bit better than that.

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    Default Re: US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

    this b******* about it was 1940 and we weren't there to experience it and it was a World War yada yada yada that's absolute garbage it has nothing to do with common sense. Common Sense has nothing to do with you being personally there and experiencing it yada yada yada. We use common sense when we sent a probe to Mars we were never on Mars but we use common sense to program the pro and to make good decisions about how to program it but yet we were never personally on Mars. There are certain things we can just use intellect in common sense to judge. There was no reason to drop atomic bombs on Japan not the first and not the second. And don't give me this garbage about unless you actually fought in a war or were in a war as a victim that you really don't know what you're talkin about when it comes to war. That is absolute garbage and has nothing to do with anything. unless your household is being invaded personally in your neighborhood where you live and you have to pick up a gun or an axe to defend yourself in your family you have no business going across to the other side of the world and incinerating people or doing nation-building or doing The White Man's Burden.


    DA FUCK ATTA HE

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