Terence Crawford- the best P4P in the sport today!

[Alpha]

I didn’t even imply they were better, just that it’s easy to chalk them up to being as good. Linares truly had lost to the best guys he fought before loma, that’s pretty hard to argue imo.
I’m not about to say that lomanchenko isn’t great or that the guys he fought so soon into his career isn’t, that wasn’t the point.

Yeah and i'm just saying in my opinion Loma's opp is superior and it's pretty clear.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Loma and Usyk's records and comparisons.

What do you consider Loma's 3 best wins?

You're accussing me of "bias" and "deception" for offering a blase opinion about who is best in a MYTHICAL sense? What? Since when have I ever "ignored" Loma's loss to Salido?

Mikey had ONE FIGHT at 135 against Zlaticanin, your precious WBC belt was the one stripped from Linares. Linares went unbeaten for SIX YEARS at 135 picking up the WBC, WBA and RING belt along the way.

And yet I still conceded to you guys Mikey was no.1 because YOU KNOW Mikey kills Linares. YOU KNOW who wins before fighters even meet.

"Bias, lies and deception" in a silly fantasy scenario based solely on ones personal preference!!! Laughable.

Hold fire, comparing opposition is not mythical, P4P is. With opposition there is more to go on. I'm just trying to understand why you rate Loma's record so highly, when compared to others in that group it's all pretty even. I know your a Loma fan, so am I. But his record is far from a murderers row.

Linares was facing weak opposition over that time, after being stopped twice by guys who I don't think many would have considered top 10 going in.

Mikey may beat Linares, but that's not what I said, I said Garcia was #1.

I don't rate Loma's record so highly I rate it superior to Crawford and Mikey's, then I factor in my own personal preference that Loma is THE best boxer in the world, the best by "my eyes," the most talented, the best single talent to watch.

All rankings are based solely on opinion. Boxing isn't like any other sport as we quite simply don't have enough data/evidence to ever definitively prove one fighter is better than another.

Why was Mikey no.1 at 135? He had ONE fight in the division and that ONE fight wasn't against the no.1 guy.

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on it being superior. The stuff about best boxer and eye test is not in regards to opposition.

How many fights has Loma had at 135? And what #1 guy did Linares beat? Mikey sparked Zlaticanin, who many considered #2 at the time. For me that put Mikey ahead of Linares who had already suffered loses to Thompson and DeMarco and also looked vulnerable against Mitchell.

Loma's record is not even superior to Usyk or Inoue's in my opinion. You could even add Wangek, GGG and Canelo based on the opposition they have fought.

There's no correct way to do P4P.

Who was considered no.1 ahead of Zlaticanin?

I had Linares at #1 but with Linares' inactivity up to the Crolla fight I guess some may have had Zlaticanin at the top.

[Fenster]

Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?

These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.

These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.

And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.

I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"

It's called consistency lads.

[Alpha]

Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?

These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.

These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.

And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.

I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"

It's called consistency lads.

Like I said Linares was inactive, and Garcia took out the #2 guy. What was the highest rated guy Linares beat in that time? Linares was only #1 by default, guys like Figueroa, Abril and Broner had moved on. Who did Linares win his WBC title from? And again the Ring title was crowned on a #1 vs #3.

[Fenster]

Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?

These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.

These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.

And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.

I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"

It's called consistency lads.

Like I said Linares was inactive, and Garcia took out the #2 guy. What was the highest rated guy Linares beat in that time? Linares was only #1 by default, guys like Figueroa, Abril and Broner had moved on. Who did Linares win his WBC title from? And again the Ring title was crowned on a #1 vs #3.

Yeah like I said i'm dealing with what happened in the ring not what did not.

Linares was no.1 by default? Linares was inactive? Linares never beat the no.1? Linares WBC and Ring belts aren't kosher?

Yet you rated him no.1

[Alpha]

Right, so you ranked Linares no.1 along with the Ring and every other major publication. However, you then ranked Garcia no.1 for beating Zlat, you believe that sole win trumps everything Linares did at lightweight?

These were the credentials of my number one lightweight - WBC, WBA, Ring champion and no.1 lightweight who was on a 13 fight unbeaten streak going into the Loma fight.

These were the credentials of your no.1 lightweight - picked up a WBC title, which had been stripped from the no.1 Linares, against the not number one in Zlaticacin.

And I never once said you can't claim Garcia as the best lightweight even though Linares CLEARLY has the strongest resume at 135. Why? Because it's all just OPINIONS!!! Just like P4P. I could make a case for half-a-dozen fighters without giving it a second thought.

I'm judging fighters solely by their exploits in the ring yet being accused of "bias" and "lies" and "deception!!!"

It's called consistency lads.

Like I said Linares was inactive, and Garcia took out the #2 guy. What was the highest rated guy Linares beat in that time? Linares was only #1 by default, guys like Figueroa, Abril and Broner had moved on. Who did Linares win his WBC title from? And again the Ring title was crowned on a #1 vs #3.

Yeah like I said i'm dealing with what happened in the ring not what did not.

Linares was no.1 by default? Linares was inactive? Linares never beat the no.1? Linares WBC and Ring belts aren't kosher?

Yet you rated him no.1

Yea until Mikey entered the division with a ko of the #2 guy.

Just because I had Linares at 1 doesn't mean he was the consensus or undisputed #1 who had beat everyone else. Its like say 122 at the moment, I'd have Dogboe at 1 but Vargas or Roman could just as easily be there. If Rigo can't back and ko'd the #2 in 2 rounds, most would put him at #1.

Or say Tyson Fury for example ko'd Wilder in his comeback fight to the division, it would be reasonable for people to rate him #1.

[mikeeod]

Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.

To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.

[powerpuncher]

Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.

To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.

I think it’s about the gap in the competition. I don’t think there’s much of a gap, therefore, Crawford takes the spot over Loma. If I thought that Loma’s Competition was that much better than Crawford’s then I would put Loma over him. It’s just hard to believe that people think that Loma’s resume is head and shoulders above Crawford’s.

[mikeeod]

Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.

To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.

I think it’s about the gap in the competition. I don’t think there’s much of a gap, therefore, Crawford takes the spot over Loma. If I thought that Loma’s Competition was that much better than Crawford’s then I would put Loma over him. It’s just hard to believe that people think that Loma’s resume is head and shoulders above Crawford’s.

Hard for me to believe people think there isn’t a gap. Guess that is why it is subjective. We will have o agree to disagree.

[Alpha]

Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.

To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.

I think the point that was originally brought up was that most of these guys records are on par and missing an elite win.

I don't think I said those wins were better, just that they were on par with what Loma has done.

You can do the same for Loma's record, I have stated that I feel Russell Jr is Loma's best win, as have others. But what had he done when Loma fought him? His record was padded to the max. Fenster likes to use HOF, but Linares is a push, and if Rigo ever gets in it won't be for anything he did at 130, where Loma fought him. I would consider the Walters and Postol wins to be very similar.

Crawford has been recognized as lineal champ in 2 divisions, now you can sh-t on the divisions all you like, but if it was so easy to do, why don't we have more fighters recognized as lineal champs?

I don't even have Crawford or Loma at #1 P4P, the point I'm trying to make is that Loma's record is far from superior over the likes of Usyk, Inoue, Mikey, Crawford, Wangek, Canelo and GGG, based on the opposition they have faced. And lets remember that Loma, whatever the circumstances involving the fight, the fact remains Loma lost to Salido.

I asked for what people considered Loma's 3 best wins, even top 5, so we can do a proper comparison.

[mikeeod]

Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.

To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.

I think the point that was originally brought up was that most of these guys records are on par and missing an elite win.

I don't think I said those wins were better, just that they were on par with what Loma has done.

You can do the same for Loma's record, I have stated that I feel Russell Jr is Loma's best win, as have others. But what had he done when Loma fought him? His record was padded to the max. Fenster likes to use HOF, but Linares is a push, and if Rigo ever gets in it won't be for anything he did at 130, where Loma fought him. I would consider the Walters and Postol wins to be very similar.

Crawford has been recognized as lineal champ in 2 divisions, now you can sh-t on the divisions all you like, but if it was so easy to do, why don't we have more fighters recognized as lineal champs?

I don't even have Crawford or Loma at #1 P4P, the point I'm trying to make is that Loma's record is far from superior over the likes of Usyk, Inoue, Mikey, Crawford, Wangek, Canelo and GGG, based on the opposition they have faced. And lets remember that Loma, whatever the circumstances involving the fight, the fact remains Loma lost to Salido.

I asked for what people considered Loma's 3 best wins, even top 5, so we can do a proper comparison.

Lomas top wins (in my opinion) are: 1. Gary Russel jr., 2. Linares, 3. Nicholas Walters, 4. Rigondeaux, and 5. Roman Martinez. I don’t see Crawford’s big wins on par with those guys and Crawford has almost 3 times as many fights. I like to hear the different point of view (when articulated logically like you do), so don’t want to cut this short, but will say we are splitting hairs to a degree since I think we both agree they are p4p guys. All subjective and no matter what, not much separating them.

[Ron Swanson]

All this talk ends if these guys just fight the best guys near them.

Loma needs Mikey

Crawford needs Spence

Until then it’s just talk, and Inoue may be past them by then anyway.

[TitoFan]

Well there's certainly no shame in picking either Crawford or Lomachenko for the top p4p spot. Articles found online seem to be divided as well. I myself feel Crawford has the superior accolades, longer career, and can hang just fine on quality of opponents. We can all pick holes in the top opponents of the other guy. My personal picks for top Lomachenko opponents, in order of quality, would be: 1. Walters, 2. Linares, 3. Russell Jr., a bit of a gap there... then, 4. Rigondeaux, 5. Martinez. I hate to say it, but Martinez was a rather weak champion. Brave... fun to watch... but weak. Mikey Garcia had already destroyed him earlier. Rigondeaux was so way out of his league in size it wasn't even funny. What's funny is how Loma fans will grasp onto Rigo like it was Leonard-Hearns all over again. The other three I rate as great wins. Crawford's big wins I won't put in order, but suffice it to say I'd include Postol, Benavidez, Gamboa, and Dulorme in there. I'm sure Loma fans would poke holes in those too. Like I said, there's no shame in picking either, since that's what boxing pundits are doing.

[Alpha]

Regardless of how you personally feel about ranking Linares 1 or 2, the guy was a solid champ and tough fight. Mikey is a p4p fighter on most lists, so even if you have him over Linares at that weight, that doesn’t diminish Linares’s pedigree. Other good points brought up was Loma beating Gary Russel jr., who looks better and better with each fight. Walters didn’t just beat Vic and Donaire, he destroyed those guys. Loma didn’t just beat Walters, he humiliated him and made him quit.

To your points about Horn, Postol, and Gamboa being better wins: Gamboa was undefeated but coming off a year lay off and smaller, Postol made his name off matthyse who has turned out to be a limited, crude puncher, and Horn got a gift decision/robbery against a past his prime Manny. This is all subjective in how we look at certain wins/losses so not saying you are wrong and I’m right. Just saying that I personally think Loma has faced tougher comp and should be ranked higher than Bud right now.

I think the point that was originally brought up was that most of these guys records are on par and missing an elite win.

I don't think I said those wins were better, just that they were on par with what Loma has done.

You can do the same for Loma's record, I have stated that I feel Russell Jr is Loma's best win, as have others. But what had he done when Loma fought him? His record was padded to the max. Fenster likes to use HOF, but Linares is a push, and if Rigo ever gets in it won't be for anything he did at 130, where Loma fought him. I would consider the Walters and Postol wins to be very similar.

Crawford has been recognized as lineal champ in 2 divisions, now you can sh-t on the divisions all you like, but if it was so easy to do, why don't we have more fighters recognized as lineal champs?

I don't even have Crawford or Loma at #1 P4P, the point I'm trying to make is that Loma's record is far from superior over the likes of Usyk, Inoue, Mikey, Crawford, Wangek, Canelo and GGG, based on the opposition they have faced. And lets remember that Loma, whatever the circumstances involving the fight, the fact remains Loma lost to Salido.

I asked for what people considered Loma's 3 best wins, even top 5, so we can do a proper comparison.

Lomas top wins (in my opinion) are: 1. Gary Russel jr., 2. Linares, 3. Nicholas Walters, 4. Rigondeaux, and 5. Roman Martinez. I don’t see Crawford’s big wins on par with those guys and Crawford has almost 3 times as many fights. I like to hear the different point of view (when articulated logically like you do), so don’t want to cut this short, but will say we are splitting hairs to a degree since I think we both agree they are p4p guys. All subjective and no matter what, not much separating them.

I'm with you, they are all elite guys, I'm just arguing that Loma's record is far from superior. It's very good but not outstanding. Loma was also had a very long am career, which is why I find it hard that folks feel his record outshines the likes of say Usyk or Inoue.

Like I said I don't have Crawford or Loma at #1 but I feel these are Crawfords best wins: 1. Postol, 2. Indongo, 3. Gamboa 4. Beltran, 5. Diaz. Maybe a Crawford fan or someone who rates him #1 P4P will have a different 5. But let me explain these wins and I'll try to compare them to Lomas:

I have Postol at 1 because he beat the recognized guy at 140 when they fought, it was also a #1 vs #2 fight for the lineal championship. Postol's only other 'official' loss is to Taylor who many currently consider either #1 or #2 at 140. This win is at least on par with Linares for me.

Indongo was a unified titleholder, who's only other loss has come against Prograis, who I feel is recognized as #1 at 140 currently. Indongo defeated Burns and Troyanovsky. Troyanovsky arguably just beat Relikh. This win is at least on par with Rigondeaux, I consider the Rigo win, similar to Mayweathers win over Marquez, a great fighter but far from his best weight and also inactive. It also on par with Martinez.

Gamboa could possibly be #2. He was undefeated, but as you say, moving up and had also been inactive. I think the Walters/ Martinez wins and Gamboa could be considered similar.

I have Beltran in as I feel he was robbed against Burns. Crawford beat them both. The Burns win gave Crawford the lineal title, but it should have really been Beltran. Again, I don't see much difference between this win and Walters, Rigo and Martinez. Walters and Rigo both had to move up, at least Crawford fought Beltran at 135. Beltran had 6 losses coming in, but the Burns fight was stolen from him, the Bogere could have also gone either way. He also had wins over Lundy and Usmanee.

I have Diaz as 5. He is a former gold medalist and had arguably beaten Lamont at 147, as well as highly regarded Vasquez. I would consider this fight on par with Walters.

So for me personally there is not a lot between both of there best wins. There are also other guys on Crawford's record that are on par, if not better than Walters and a 2 weight smaller Rigo.

Someone who is a fan of Crawford or feels he's currently #1 can probably do a better job at this for Crawford, this is just my opinion. If you want me to do guys like Usyk and Inoue to show that Loma's record is not superior I'd be happy to.

[Alpha]

Well there's certainly no shame in picking either Crawford or Lomachenko for the top p4p spot. Articles found online seem to be divided as well. I myself feel Crawford has the superior accolades, longer career, and can hang just fine on quality of opponents. We can all pick holes in the top opponents of the other guy. My personal picks for top Lomachenko opponents, in order of quality, would be: 1. Walters, 2. Linares, 3. Russell Jr., a bit of a gap there... then, 4. Rigondeaux, 5. Martinez. I hate to say it, but Martinez was a rather weak champion. Brave... fun to watch... but weak. Mikey Garcia had already destroyed him earlier. Rigondeaux was so way out of his league in size it wasn't even funny. What's funny is how Loma fans will grasp onto Rigo like it was Leonard-Hearns all over again. The other three I rate as great wins. Crawford's big wins I won't put in order, but suffice it to say I'd include Postol, Benavidez, Gamboa, and Dulorme in there. I'm sure Loma fans would poke holes in those too. Like I said, there's no shame in picking either, since that's what boxing pundits are doing.

Good post Tito.

Personally I feel Loma's best 3 are Russell Jr, Linares, and maybe Walters.

Put that alongside:

Briedis, Gassiev, Glowacki

Or

Narvaez, Taguchi, Payano

And there's not really a lot that's so superior.

[Ron Swanson]

Well there's certainly no shame in picking either Crawford or Lomachenko for the top p4p spot. Articles found online seem to be divided as well. I myself feel Crawford has the superior accolades, longer career, and can hang just fine on quality of opponents. We can all pick holes in the top opponents of the other guy. My personal picks for top Lomachenko opponents, in order of quality, would be: 1. Walters, 2. Linares, 3. Russell Jr., a bit of a gap there... then, 4. Rigondeaux, 5. Martinez. I hate to say it, but Martinez was a rather weak champion. Brave... fun to watch... but weak. Mikey Garcia had already destroyed him earlier. Rigondeaux was so way out of his league in size it wasn't even funny. What's funny is how Loma fans will grasp onto Rigo like it was Leonard-Hearns all over again. The other three I rate as great wins. Crawford's big wins I won't put in order, but suffice it to say I'd include Postol, Benavidez, Gamboa, and Dulorme in there. I'm sure Loma fans would poke holes in those too. Like I said, there's no shame in picking either, since that's what boxing pundits are doing.

Good post Tito.

Personally I feel Loma's best 3 are Russell Jr, Linares, and maybe Walters.

Put that alongside:

Briedis, Gassiev, Glowacki

Or

Narvaez, Taguchi, Payano

And there's not really a lot that's so superior.

For me there are very little differences that would have made huge differences. If Loma had taken the Berchelt fight before going to 135 it would have made a huge difference for me.(accomplishment as the marker) Or had Tank been willing (talent as the marker). I would have Loma beating either but they didn’t happen one not for Loma’s choosing. Just to have him show he is the best in a division rather than just look the best in a division.

Crawford actually showed he was the best at 140, no debate, no opinion. Undisputed. That doesn’t put Crawford above Loma, it’s just a feather in his cap. I want to see Loma match that accomplishment. It’s right there for him, can be done by early next year. Go get it, prove it.