Thread: should fighters who duck others be all time greats

Should a fighter who dodges another while they are both in their glory years still be considered one of the greatest ?

Yes and no. If a fighter flat out don't want to fight a guy, then his record might be an all-time great, but it would be considered padded.

On the other hand. With the big networks, and promoters, and sanctioning bodies interfering, some fights may never happen due to contracts. If don King signs you, you only fight who he wants you to. Tito was his cash cow, and wanted a rematch against BHOP, and King wouldn't let it happen. That's why he retired the first time. It's a damn shame that outside entities affect the outcome of the sport. I wish there was one cure-all situation, but there isn't.

All we can do is hope.

If thats true then Mayweather will never be an all time great for ducking Casamayor.

Originally Posted by P.G.H Angel Eyes

If thats true then Mayweather will never be an all time great for ducking Casamayor.

Come on. You know that HBO and Showtime didn't let that fight happen. Besides, Floyd would beat him, he should have fought him, but he would still win.

A lot of the fighters I consider all-time Greats, were victims rather than perpetrators; on this subject.

Although now that I am comming round to placing Roy Jones Jr as an all-time Great, I guess this subject is going to get more and more heated.

I would certainly say, it does not help your case, especially when it is a deliberate decision, rather than a political one.

would dempsey be considered an all time great for refusing to fight wills? is marciano considered and all time great for not fighting valdes. im pretty sure both men would have fought these challengers but influences outside dictated otherwise

Originally Posted by LBSCFC

would dempsey be considered an all time great for refusing to fight wills? is marciano considered and all time great for not fighting valdes. im pretty sure both men would have fought these challengers but influences outside dictated otherwise

But IMO neither Dempsey nor Marciano are all time Greats.

Get off the crack BRITKID....Dempsey and Marciano not all time greats? wait lemme guess you have Hatton as the greatest WELTERWEIGHT of all time already don't you.. thought so..probably think Judah is second to Hatton in the p4p.

Originally Posted by bigragu

Get off the crack BRITKID....Dempsey and Marciano not all time greats? wait lemme guess you have Hatton as the greatest WELTERWEIGHT of all time already don't you.. thought so..probably think Judah is second to Hatton in the p4p.

Dempsey and Marciano do not fully meet my criteria at the moment. They are huge icons of the sport, no doubt. But both lack in the quality of opposition and both have small redemption issues, to make it into Boxing Valhalla.

As for Ricky and indeed Zab Zab, time will tell....

Below is the 35 fighters, I consider all-time greats:

35 Roy Jones
34 George Foreman
33 Joe Gans
32 Ruben Olivares
31 Thomas Hearns
30 Marvin Hagler
29 Joe Louis
28 Gene Tunney
27 George Dixon
26 Eder Jofre
25 Carlos Zarate
24 Alexis Arguello
23 Pernell Whitaker
22 Oscar de la Hoya
21 Pancho Villa
20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Grebb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon
11 Muhammad Ali
10 Charley Burley
9 Archie Moore
8 Jimmy Wilde
7 Willie Pep
6 Sandy Sadler
5 Georges Carpentier
4 Roberto Duran
3 Sammy Langford
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson

On average, you tend to get an all time great come along every three years or so, but that is not a given...

At the moment these five are just outside being considered all time Greats, but I suspect in time, I will consider them all, all time greats:

40 Kid Gavilan
39 Azumah Nelson
38 Bernard Hopkins
37 Jack Johnson
36 Ricardo Lopez

And for the record I have Marciano at #56 and Dempsey at #70, in my all time top 100 list. For the moment neither Ricky or Zab Zab are not listed....

Originally Posted by fatsandy

Should a fighter who dodges another while they are both in their glory years still be considered one of the greatest ?

"yes and no" is the right answer lol

because ofcourse its bad to duck a boxer who you MAY or may not be afraid of thats always noticbly bad

however in cases like RJJ vs Tarver ..RJJ shouldnt have fought him because he had moved up and shoulda stayed up in weight ...he didnt have anything to prove by fighting him at 175

When its mandatory u fight someone like in the case of Lewis byrd ...u shouldnt just give ur belt up like Lewis did ...or like riddick did to lewis but w/e they have reasons

Originally Posted by Britkid

Originally Posted by bigragu

Get off the crack BRITKID....Dempsey and Marciano not all time greats? wait lemme guess you have Hatton as the greatest WELTERWEIGHT of all time already don't you.. thought so..probably think Judah is second to Hatton in the p4p.

Dempsey and Marciano do not fully meet my criteria at the moment. They are huge icons of the sport, no doubt. But both lack in the quality of opposition and both have small redemption issues, to make it into Boxing Valhalla.

As for Ricky and indeed Zab Zab, time will tell....

Below is the 35 fighters, I consider all-time greats:

35 Roy Jones
34 George Foreman
33 Joe Gans
32 Ruben Olivares
31 Thomas Hearns
30 Marvin Hagler
29 Joe Louis
28 Gene Tunney
27 George Dixon
26 Eder Jofre
25 Carlos Zarate
24 Alexis Arguello
23 Pernell Whitaker
22 Oscar de la Hoya
21 Pancho Villa
20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Grebb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon
11 Muhammad Ali
10 Charley Burley
9 Archie Moore
8 Jimmy Wilde
7 Willie Pep
6 Sandy Sadler
5 Georges Carpentier
4 Roberto Duran
3 Sammy Langford
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson

On average, you tend to get an all time great come along every three years or so, but that is not a given...

At the moment these five are just outside being considered all time Greats, but I suspect in time, I will consider them all, all time greats:

40 Kid Gavilan
39 Azumah Nelson
38 Bernard Hopkins
37 Jack Johnson
36 Ricardo Lopez

And for the record I have Marciano at #56 and Dempsey at #70, in my all time top 100 list. For the moment neither Ricky or Zab Zab are not listed....

I don't know how you decide who's an all-time great, but you leaving off Dempsey and Marciano makes no sense, Dempsey K.O. d Carpentier and Marciano beat Charles in 2 epic battles, and had Dempsey been active prior to the Tunney bout, Dempsey would had beaten him soundly, Dempsey was perhaps the most fericous fighter to ever step into the ring, Tyson idolized him and even wore his hair like Dempsey early in his career. So your way off.

Originally Posted by atomic bull

I don't know how you decide who's an all-time great, but you leaving off Dempsey and Marciano makes no sense, Dempsey K.O. d Carpentier and Marciano beat Charles in 2 epic battles, and had Dempsey been active prior to the Tunney bout, Dempsey would had beaten him soundly, Dempsey was perhaps the most fericous fighter to ever step into the ring, Tyson idolized him and even wore his hair like Dempsey early in his career. So your way off.

How I decide an all-time Great:

Quality of opposition
Length of World Class career
Redemption

Then is intangibles like

Originality and poineering qualites
Iconic status
Impact on boxing history (all of them can be connected)

Then to break ties; I bias

Ring Generalship
Technical ability
Impact on society; then if still level
The most crowd pleasing style

And if making an all time Great was as simple as who beat who, then Leon Spinks beat Ali, and Spinks was beaten by Jose Ribalta, who was beaten by Tim whitherspoon, was beaten by Brian Nix, who was beaten by Audley Harrison; so ....

The truth is Carpentier and Charles were more impressive meeting the criteria; such as redemption and quality of opposition, than either Dempsey or Marciano, IMO.

I don't entirely agree My #1 would be your #15 (J C Chavez) then robbinson and all the other poops like Ali. Besides what other fighter do you know Besides Julio who went 90 & and 0 before being handed his first lost. 3 time World champ and lots more. Then there is Rocky who is the only heavyweight to have retired undefeated.Not to mention Ricardo Lopez who also retired a champ & undefeated

that being said I rest my case

Originally Posted by memojaras

I don't entirely agree My #1 would be your #15 (J C Chavez) then robbinson and all the other poops like Ali. Besides what other fighter do you know Besides Julio who went 90 & and 0 before being handed his first lost.

LOL, JCC is one of my all time favourite fighters, but there is no getting away from the fact, that the big unbeaten record at the start of his career, is simply not true, he DID lose fight #12, it is just because Tyson went to jail, and DKP were left with JCC as their top draw, they had to try, and re-write history.

Originally Posted by Britkid

Originally Posted by bigragu

Get off the crack BRITKID....Dempsey and Marciano not all time greats? wait lemme guess you have Hatton as the greatest WELTERWEIGHT of all time already don't you.. thought so..probably think Judah is second to Hatton in the p4p.

Dempsey and Marciano do not fully meet my criteria at the moment. They are huge icons of the sport, no doubt. But both lack in the quality of opposition and both have small redemption issues, to make it into Boxing Valhalla.

As for Ricky and indeed Zab Zab, time will tell....

Below is the 35 fighters, I consider all-time greats:

35 Roy Jones
34 George Foreman
33 Joe Gans
32 Ruben Olivares
31 Thomas Hearns
30 Marvin Hagler
29 Joe Louis
28 Gene Tunney
27 George Dixon
26 Eder Jofre
25 Carlos Zarate
24 Alexis Arguello
23 Pernell Whitaker
22 Oscar de la Hoya
21 Pancho Villa
20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Grebb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon
11 Muhammad Ali
10 Charley Burley
9 Archie Moore
8 Jimmy Wilde
7 Willie Pep
6 Sandy Sadler
5 Georges Carpentier
4 Roberto Duran
3 Sammy Langford
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson

On average, you tend to get an all time great come along every three years or so, but that is not a given...

At the moment these five are just outside being considered all time Greats, but I suspect in time, I will consider them all, all time greats:

40 Kid Gavilan
39 Azumah Nelson
38 Bernard Hopkins
37 Jack Johnson
36 Ricardo Lopez

And for the record I have Marciano at #56 and Dempsey at #70, in my all time top 100 list. For the moment neither Ricky or Zab Zab are not listed....

While you obviously know a lot about boxing history, Britkid, it's always been just as obvious to me that your "alltime" lists seem slightly skewed "geographically speaking." I can't help noticing how none of the famous Puerto Rican fighters made your list. And yet you seem to have a lot of British fighters in there that the majority of the boxing fan base on this side of the world hasn't even heard of.

I have a lot of issues with your "list." Felix Trinidad and Wilfredo Gomez not on there, when you have other dubious entries in there? Carlos Zarate? Didn't Gomez take him apart at the peak of his career? Surely you'll have a "historical" answer for that, complete with dates, names and anecdotes.

For my money, however, "alltime" lists are highly subjective and yours is no exception.
Hope you understand.

TitoFan