Thread: To pivot or not to pivot?

Hi

I've trained in a number of different gyms with different coaches but after about 6 years I'd still consider myself a beginner - partly because I've heard so many different opinions and am unsure of what to make of a few points. So I'm hoping you can give me your opinions and reasoning RE a few conflicting things I've been taught.

My first Q would be do you agree with the pivot for the right cross or not?

I have some coaches who believe you will never get any power out of the cross without the pivot. I've had others who are totally against it based on the principle of maybe loosing balance and not being able to reset or move at the end of it. Only one out of about 9 different coaches would advocate both for different circumstances.

I am not sure I am able to throw a right cross without at least a small pivot but perhaps that is because my hips are not flexible enough or I am not using my knees as suspension enough for the movement. Still i would have thought that if you must bend your knees to allow your hips to be thrown into the cross you would not be very effective in sparring a taller person?

I can see there may be instances where you just use a cross like a jab to upset your opponents timing etc but i am most concerned with how to throw the right cross as a powerful punch in a way that still leaves me balanced for my next action.

Any thoughts?

yeah, of course you pivot. whoever told you not to is a fucking idiot. just don't lean (too much)... in that case you'll leave yourself off balance. also, for fighting a taller person, you WANT to get low.... get low to get inside to take away their power. Mike Tyson fought taller oponents his whole career. He didn't do it by boxing them from the outside. I said this in aother thread... combos more than two punches are pretty impractical. How many times have you seen someone land a clean 1-2-3-4? Mitts don't hit back and oponents move. If you can land a good right hand, you won't need to get off the next shot instantly. Come back with another right if you want.

watch floyd.
[youtube=425,350]5Q0ot6kJC84[/youtube]

now, how many pretty, clean textbook combos do you see? Very few. He throws combos, but they're improvised, and they certainly aren't a clean 1-2-3-4 like you'd see him do on mitts. He throws them based on what the situation calls for. some punches are looping, some straight, some are even slaps... watch at 2:10. 4 right hands in a row. How many times do you see a trainer say, "gimme 4 right hands." Never.

where did you train, at a kids Karate dojo? Forget what those idiots told you. you've also been told good things and do it the way YOU like to. After all these years, you surely have developed your own style. If you like to pivot, don't change it.

A big clue when pivoting, think you have vision in your back heel. If the heel cant see what its hitting, youll be of balance when throwing a punch. Thats any punch, more so the right hand.

You are right thanks Von Milash - I do like to pivot and I should stick to what i feel comfortable. I also noticed that Floyd didn't look off balance at all. He did look like he put his weight into every punch but he looked controlled and aware of where he was in every moment.

I also like the balancing technique you recommended to direct the back heel thanks Scrap. When I was first taught to pivot I was told to pivot so far my back foot would finish pointing left behind my left foot. Now I can see that this is way too far and perhaps part of the reason some coaches have turned against the pivot.

The thing is 2 out of 4 of my present coaches are non-pivoters aswell as others I've met elsewhere  . One of them has a weak ankle and I'm wondering if not pivoting is better for some as individuals for physical reasons. Perhaps pivoting with the cross is better for people like me who are not so flexible? I've also come across non-pivoters in at least one other boxing gym. I'm told it's the European boxing style? Perhaps amateur boxing - points based rather than damage based scoring tends to promote this style?

Is there anyone out there who seriously advocates the non-pivoting right cross? If so do you believe the pivot is wrong - as some coaches I have met do - or do you advocate a non-pivoting cross only for particular situations and why? ......... C'mon i know you are out there!

Originally Posted by Von Milash

combos more than two punches are pretty impractical. How many times have you seen someone land a clean 1-2-3-4? Mitts don't hit back and oponents move. If you can land a good right hand, you won't need to get off the next shot instantly. Come back with another right if you want.

I disagree with this, particulary in the Amateurs , you often see 1,2,3,4 comboes from normal or off a counter, e.g. counter the jab with left right left hook right .

I find amateur boxing is sometimes like a race , staying really busy and throwing long comboes if you can.. pro boxing is the chess match

maybe in the amateurs. I won't dispute that cuz I don't know. but in the pros, it's moreso isolated shots and combos that are improvised based on need.

Originally Posted by Von Milash

maybe in the amateurs. I won't dispute that cuz I don't know. but in the pros, it's moreso isolated shots and combos that are improvised based on need.

yeah agreed on that

Are you a trainer von milash??

Only when he's playing dressup.

There's ways you can throw your right out without it becoming a sucker punch. For one you if your opponent reacts to your shoulder feints you can feint a jab and come back with a hard right. You can also draw him in by provoking a counter that you can see coming, or forcing him to throw the punch that you want him to. Practice drawing and slipping while you are sparring. If you can find an opponents bad tendency and open it up further then you nail him with any of best punches.

A lot of fighters drop their left when they think you can't reach them. One neat move that Rocky Marciano used to great effect is his "phantom overhand." You make them think you are going low by moving your eyes from their eyes to thier body. You do this as soon as you take a step forward. . You drop your knees and perhaps a hand if your opponent needs more convincing. Then you spring up violently put his head in your sights and throw the best overhand right that you can.

If done quickly it'll be too late for him to keep it from coming. You twist your right hand horizontally and you'll be able to get more distance by raising your rear foot forward.

Some other moves that take more explanation is the drop-shift which you move your left foot back and switch to lefty stance to set up your hooks or uppercuts. And various counters, greysnotsoold in his section gives you textbook knowledge on the matter.

As for pivot/no-pivot it depends what works for you. You can step forward, you can pivot, you shift/side-step. I think it's better to have good foot position to prevent ankle injuries and to give balance, as for a strong right I like to think of my rear leg to act as a hinge, or as a spring for a jolting punch a la Jack Dempsey.

Yeah I guess there are so many ways to do things and maybe few strict rights and wrongs that fit every individual.

Recently I have begun to think that biomechanically a straight cross might only be powerful if set up after stepping left or diagonally towards the jabbing side first - so the target is effectively in front of the right cross.

An ex-coach of mine who is Russian used to teach me to throw the cross without a pivot but only with a lateral or oblique step to set it up. Subsequent coaches who have tried to get me to do this either have a small pivot they do not know about or only appear to be punching with the weight of their arms alone - not their hips and entire body.

The knee joint is not made to rotate sideways enough to get the hips into a punch without a pivot - of course correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Shouldn't it then effectively be called something other than the cross if you don't pivot since the only way you can do it is by maneuvering to make it a punch which does not have to cross your body?

Does that sound like a fair theory or is my understanding of this all wrong?

Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Are you a trainer von milash??

not in the sense you're asking, but I do work with the young kids to help out the guys at our gym.

Just a quick note on this topic now I'm older and more able to see how stupid i can be (older and wiser doesn't quite fit yet) -

The correct answer is you MUST pivot.

You may have noticed in work occupational health & safety courses on manual handling they tell you to pivot if you must turn when carrying a weight rather than twisting your back because it can injure your vertibrae.

Also this type of movement is considered one of the main causes of illiopsoas strains which can be tricky little Aholes as this injury can pretend to be so many different things:

"The types of physical actions which seem to cause this condition are standing and twisting at the waist without moving the feet"

http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=38131


So if you are ever in the position i was in - a coach tells you to practice twisting without pivoting he is asking you to injure yourself, he doesn't know what he's doing, in the case of the coaches who told me that they DID pivot but just didn't think they did ........... I won't go on - you get the gist of it!

Don't waste your time there!