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Thread: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

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  1. #1
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    Default This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    Who are the guys in MMA that are GENUINELY talented? I mean, REALLY have world class skills.

    The more I watch boxing and MMA, I'm beginning to detest MMA stand-up. They just can't do it. Even the best "stand-up" guys suck, apart from a select few...Mirko, Hunt and a few others. But in that Chuck-Jardine fight, two guys who have no interest in going to the ground looked absolutely atrocious. So it got me thinking.... IMO, there seem to be a lot of guys in pro MMA who really shouldn't be considered pro athletes. Pound for pound, they come up well short against the top athletes in other sports,, not just boxing.

    So, the guys that are really deserving of world class status, who are they?

    I jsut can't help but to think that there was some truth to what PBF said a couple months ago. I just can't imagine ANY fighter saying, "fuck boxing. I'm an MMA guy" and passing up an opportunity to earn 10TIMES the money of a big payday in boxing. Mirko is a perfect example. If he was so great, wouldn't he take just ONE fight against a legit HW boxer? He'd earn magnitudes more for that one fight than any payday he ever earned in MMA. And the same goes for the K-1 guys. Sure they're pretty good, but the bigger paydays are elsewhere.

    My list...to name a few and get the ball rolling...

    Randy. Outstanding athlete.
    GSP.
    Fedor. But again, if he truly is the badest man on the planet, why wouldn't he take a big fight against a guy like Vlad and earn an instant 10mill? (Even if non title)
    Mirko (old but great high kick and awesome strangth. But the same argument applies to him as Fedor).
    Hunt. K-1 champ, tough as nails. but same argument.
    Nog. Solid stand-up and great ground.

    keep it going.





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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    not sure if you ever did thai boxing, but there is a major diference in the stand up of that and boxing...just the stance and lack of committment to the punches is big and the squared up way they stand...but yes most mma guys do suck in stand up, however i think a lot of the guys from Holland seem to be better...

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    Von, i don't get this mate. Why would Mirko take a standup boxing fight against Vlad when Mirko is not a pro boxer. MMA standup is lacking when compared against boxing, i thought we'd done this quite a few times and everyone is in agreement

    Don't know why you wouldn't class top MMA fighters as world class athletes. Bit stumped at that one. Maybe its because you are only looking at stuff through boxing tinted glasses and are not really taking any other aspects of the game into account.

    Its the same with any sport. There are your top few and then there are the also rans. Still doesn't change my opinion that in a fight a boxer, even world class one like PBF would do SH*T in an MMA fight against a top MMA fighter. Sorry but thats the cold hard truth. I'll spell it out now for the cheap seats...if PBF or any other top exponent of the sweet science stepped into an octagon they would get fucking owned on a major level. Please don't come with that "they will get knocked out coming in for the shoot" It really really doesn't work like that...honestly it doesn't.

    Bit of an extreme example but take art jimmerson (i hear the giggles now) Mr one boxing glove. He was taken to the ground and tapped before Royce even did anything on the gournd. YES that would never happen now and Art was never world class but then (sorry about this guys) neither is Royce anymore. Put Royce as he was then in with even a fringe fighter now and he gets owned. Boxers can't hide behind big gloves in MMA which is why the standup has to be different.

    My point being Boxing is a sport, MMA is a sport. Standup is an aspect of MMA but is the ONLY aspect of boxing. Its like comparing the kicking skills of a soccer player against the kicking skills of a rugby player. Different game completely but hey, they are both field sports so they must be viable for comparison eh?

    Sorry, I've not thrown my toys out completely just yet


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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    No, I DO consider top MMA guys world class. You misunderstood. My point, in part, was that it's full of guys that aren't. Sure they're built, sure they're strong, but talented they're not. IMO, Forrest Griffin is a perfect example.

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    list your reasons on Griffith...not in disagreement, just curious what you don't like besides the human punching bag aspect...

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    he has a big heart and he's strong, yes, but he has no BJJ to really speak of and he buries his head every time he punches. He was just waiting for an uppercut from Jardine.

    Like I said, I think many of the top guys have talent, but in MMA right now, perhaps due to its popularity/demand, there has been a surge of fighters into the UFC and other orgs that really aren't very good. They're tough kids, but not what I'd consider purely talented.

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    yes i see a lot of tough and possibly a lot of pugilistic demetia coming down the road...i think in mma you need a so much broader repetoire of tech and abilities that to lack in say striking is pathetic...and worse yet to not know how to do it good, that's intolerable...

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    Quote Originally Posted by Von Milash
    he has a big heart and he's strong, yes, but he has no BJJ to really speak of and he buries his head every time he punches. He was just waiting for an uppercut from Jardine.

    Like I said, I think many of the top guys have talent, but in MMA right now, perhaps due to its popularity/demand, there has been a surge of fighters into the UFC and other orgs that really aren't very good. They're tough kids, but not what I'd consider purely talented.
    Now it will have what boxing has had for years, heirarchies of talent. It will now have bums, journeymen, fringe contenders, and champs just like boxing. Now instead of people who truely like the sport of mma, you'll get the street punks that used to resort to boxing. So as mma fills up with these people, only truely dedicated boxers will turn pro in boxing. Thus uping the talent pool (maybe even in the heavyweight division) and helping out boxing YET again. If they are smart about it, they will still keep a strict hold on their good match-up fight making philosophy because if they don't, you'll get guys representing an organization that has built his record on bums. Then it becomes an argument of "Who really does have the least amount of bums in their organization". You get power struggles, matches don't get made because one org wants to protect its fighter from the other orgs champion because he can probably beat him and BAM now you have boxing politics in mma.

    Boxing became the way it is now because of its former popularity. Business men saw it as a thing to cash in on and kids with no talent what so ever did it because they thought it was cool. You know how many cage fighting this and that ripoffs they have now? All they are are recruitment camps for mediocrity. Now you're flaunting around the mma ppv numbers and talking about how its more popular than boxing like it's a good thing. I'm not saying this is the end of your good fighters because there's good athletes perpetuated in every sport. There's probably a kid watching mma right now that will become one of it's best regarded fighters ever. It got the fame, and it has the fan base, now it has to deal with the negative backlash that follows. You guys say white is a good business man, hopefully he does his best to deal with this.

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    I don't understand the question Von. Are you asking which MMA fighters are truly great atheletes or which ones could box with a legit boxer? The answer to the first is an absolute ton. If you don't think that all of the world class wrestlers/BJJ/Sambo/kickboxing practitioners are not great athletes then I'm at a loss. And as far as who can hold their own in a boxing ring? Well who cares? Its not boxing its MMA. Fedor is the P4P greatest MMA fighter out their what difference does it make if he'd get KO'd in 1 round by Wlad. I don't see you pressing boxers to prove their worth in the Octagon. Boxing and Striking are completely different. Being a good boxer would not necessarily make you a good striker and vice versa. I agree with Munky on this one and Ill use a different analogy. Softball/Baseball. If ARod got struck out by a world class fast pitch softball player does that some how diminish him as an athlete or player? No. I thought Chuck looked bad. Reminded me of Tyson just loading up for one big punch. I though Jardine looked great. Great plan great execution. Leg and Body kicks to keep Chuck off balance and good punches in combos. Its a different sport. Its now supposed to look like boxing and will always leave boxing fans feeling dissapointed if they use boxing as their means to judge MMA striking.
    Most bad government has grown out of too much government. Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    punisher you are right dead on...now as long as the politics are kept to a minimum...thimgs may be ok.and Van you are so right, my boxing doesn't look all that good due to years of thia boxing, i stand straight up, i keep legs under me and square up more than i should, but these are products of muay thai not boxing training . and yes at my age, i think i make an athlete up to par with others in my age bracket...

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    sokoudjou looked good standup in his last 2 fights


    barnett is ok also

    and a few nights ago on shoXC there was a guy malipat goldengym or some shit, he was NICE at stand up

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    i hate to say it, but i watched some shoXC ast night and it had better action and skill than any ufc for a long time...i think they may have some serious talent signed up.

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    I think the difference is more like swimming and running if you through Carl Luois in a pool he's not going to beat Mark Spittz and it goes the other way around also. But there is going to be a big surge of well rounded fighters very soon. Thats my prediction

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    These fights on the ground are similar to becoming asphyxiated with sulfur. It is like a gay violent herlequin romance novel......only boring.
    "If there's a better chin in the world than Pryor's, it has to be on Mount Rushmore." -Pat Putnam.

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    Default Re: This will surely stir the pot, but who cares....

    wow thanks for the great objective insightful comment Booze. Really put a lot of thought into that one didn't ya
    Most bad government has grown out of too much government. Thomas Jefferson

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