Thread: Why Lyle is right (Wlad and Lee)

Let's compare and contrast Wladimir Klitschko's fight vs Sultan Ibragimov and Andy Lee's fight vs Brian Vera.


Comparisons
1: Wlad and Andy have similar styles and have similar skill levels given their opponents

2: Sultan and Vera have similar styles and skill levels given their opponents

So how does one fighter that totally outclasses their opponent win and another is beaten soundly?

Contrasts
1: Wlad knew the only way Sultan could win is either with a lucky punch OR if Sultan was able to draw Wlad into a brawl. That's what Andy Lee SHOULD have known.

2: Andy Lee didn't see that his power didn't affect Vera as much as it had his previous opponents.

3. Wladimir knew he COULD KO Sultan but he weighed options of getting caught with a lucky punch, tiring out, and being drawn into a brawl vs the option of going for the KO.

Wladimir fought smart and because of that he won, he defended his title, won another and looks to prove himself as an exciting fighter later.

Andy Lee suffered a setback because he was stubborn, he didn't think, and he got caught up in the hype and went for the KO not seeing the danger in his opponent more than likely due to Vera's limited skill.


THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WIN AND A LOSS

So give Wladimir a break when he fights a boring fight and wins he knows what the fuck he's doing....same with Floyd Mayweather Jr. only Floyd is an arrogant prick and Wlad isn't

hehe When I saw the post title 'Why Lyle is right' I thought wow who would have posted THAT!

Then I saw you posted it yourself lol.

Actually I disagree with the comparative skill level bit.

Sultan whether you like him or not was a legitimate belt holder, Vera couldn't even get beyond the first round in his quest for the Contender belt.

Lee got exposed for me plain and simple. He will never be a great fighter.

Wlad I agree fights smart now and prevents people from beating him but he's just not crowd pleasing as a result.

Which is a shame as potentially he could be the most exciting fighter in the division and restore some excitiment back to the heavyweight division.

He looks like Dolph Lungdren but fights as interestingly as Zahir Raheem

Imagine how shit Rocky 4 would have been if Sly had given Drago Wlad's safety first mentality

Where does the holding come in at?

While you are correct in saying Vera couldn't get past the first round in The Contender you must recognize that he was fighting at Super Middleweight and Jaidon Codrington is a HUGE puncher....he's not very skilled but he had enough power to rock Vera AND in The Contender the fighters don't train the way they are used to.

Andy Lee is 23, he has had 16 fights, and Brian Vera was a very rough customer for him to get his first big test with. Sure Lee has shown his power and skill vs other fighters but given the point in his career where he is Brian Vera like it or not was a GIANT leap in competition, he's young, he's in his prime, he's fought legit super middleweights with skill and power on Andy Lee's current level, and he's only had ONE LOSS.

Sure Brian Vera has probably overachieved in beating Andy Lee but the loss was more due to Andy Lee not fighting a smart fight....he's obviously Irish in that he's tough and he's stubborn but he has the skill set to achieve great things and I think with more training and more learning about the pro game he's going to have to claw his way back into the game but if you think about boxing there are not a lot of Roy Jones Jr.'s or Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s and there are more Bernard Hopkins' (lost his first fight), Pipino Cuevas' (lost 5 of his first 12 fights), and Alexis Arguello's (who was 23-3 at one time losing 2 fights by KO).

Lots of GREAT fighters lose before they become great and I still think Andy Lee has the goods

Originally Posted by amat

Where does the holding come in at?

....oh I'm glad you asked....it comes in where you pick up a a bag of SHUT THE HELL UP

hahaha....actually the holding and pushing off is a smart tactic and therefore beneficial for Andy Lee....he TRIED to do the right thing but he didn't put much on his jab to keep Vera off, he needed to push off and maybe he needs to get in the weight room so he's able to muscle up on a fighter like Vera.

Ha, exactly my point Lyle

If an opponent has to use their feet to get inside on a taller fighter, then a taller fighter should have to use their's to get outside on a shorter fighter. Until then, Wlad is wrong and so are you. In the words of the great Marv Levy, "you're dead wrong"

Not especially....smaller fighters can use holding to stay on the inside AND use pushing off to corner taller fighters.



You're wrong .....dead wrong

...And to think Andre Ward still gets shit for getting knocked down once.

I actually agree here on Lee. I don't necessarily think there are to many parralels between Lee's loss and Wlad's decision to fight boring other then the fact that Lee lost because of not fighting tall. I think it was the discontinued use of the jab and the moving straight back that hurt Lee more then anything. And the fact that he stood right in front of a guy who's best hope to win the fight was to have Lee stand in front. I thought Lee should have been on his horse all fight or he should have at least given Vera some angles.

He had the left landing at a bunch of different lengths, he did some good things but was just a bit to flatfooted.

I haven't seen the discussion on it yet but anyone who thinks this is the end of Lee obviously hasn't gotten a clue.

What do you mean there aren't any parrallels between Andy Lee's fight and Wlad's fight


Wlad DIDN'T get sucked into a brawl and Andy Lee DID get sucked into a brawl....it's a perfect example of what Lee SHOULD have done and what Wladimir has learned!

If Andy Lee fought the way Wlad fought vs Sultan then yes it would have been more boring but he would have won and he has the ability to do that

Maybe if you want to oversimplify things then there are parallels, but that's what I said.

Vera posed much more of a threat to Lee then Ibragimov did Klitschko. Ibragimov was complacent in his bout versus Wlad and stood right in front of him most of the time and was pretty much there for the taking.

Vera was the complete opposite. Vera may have suckered Lee into a fight last night but I'm not sure if he just stood his ground with the jab and held on the inside that he would have done much better then he did.

Vera was getting nailed with the left cross all night long....he kept coming. I am of the belief that had Lee used the jab and moved then Vera would have slowed down but by engaging with Vera in exchanges Andy Lee gave up his momentum in the bout and gave Brian Vera more to fight for.....that glimmer of hope is all a fighter needs. When Sultan fought Wlad, Wlad closed the door on him he gave Sultan no chance to win, and no chance to gain momentum and therefore Sultan fought like a defeated fighter.


Sultan was less dangerous than Vera because Wlad let him know he wasn't going to give him any opportunities. After Vera was knocked down, had Lee backed off a bit and won rounds then Vera might have given up or fought at a more managable pace.


Andy Lee just picked the wrong times to exchange with Vera and had he not tried to KO him so much he would have had more energy.




I also think it's very important to recognize that Manny Steward probably hurt Andy Lee's chances as well. Manny was displeased with how Aaron Pryor Jr. did and maybe he wanted Andy to finish the show with a bang and it ended up costing them. The Kronk fighters didn't look so hot on Friday.

Comparison that matters

Lee fights exciting fights when Wlad doesn't

Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

Comparison that matters

Lee fights exciting fights when Wlad doesn't

.....what use is excitement when at the end of the night you don't win?


Wlad can afford to be exciting tomorrow, Andy Lee is now forced to rethink his approach because of his miscalculation.

Originally Posted by Lyle

Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

Comparison that matters

Lee fights exciting fights when Wlad doesn't

.....what use is excitement when at the end of the night you don't win?


Wlad can afford to be exciting tomorrow, Andy Lee is now forced to rethink his approach because of his miscalculation.

This is where we differ, Lyle. You IMO are well versed in the sport and are always able to back up your oppinions/views while others may not.

Now when you say "what use is excitement when at the end of the day you don't win?"

As a fan, I want my man to go out on his shield... Not be reckless, but FIGHT.

I'm not saying that I'd like a loss over a boring fight by any means but seriously... If throughout history the heavyweights all fought like Wlad(in his last fight... He has been in good scraps in the past) no one would watch that division at all... Well, maybe you.

I want to know I'm watching a fight... Yeah Lee lost. Do you really think Vera is a giant setback for him? No... I bet they have a rematch and Lee wins on points... He'll keep separation next time.

Lee likes contact, he can handle contact and he likes to deal it out. He's a tough kid. Wlad will be comfortable lumbering his way through the rest of his career(probably a fine one... probably unifying) with his jab. If you want to watch that, that's fine.

I on the other hand would much rather watch some guys who aren't afraid to throw their power hands... Guys that don't mind taking one to give one.

Cuz "at the end of the day" this is a contact sport... Men get hit(sometimes even with right hands) and men go down. I'd rather watch a fight with two men willing to taste the canvas rather then a guy who'd rather do gay underwear ads with his brother