Thread: The LINEAL welterweight championship

So this is a topic that just struck me as interesting.. And is somewhat down to judgement..

Im actually suprised how far into it i remember but this is how the REAL champion of the welterweights has gone over time..

Tito
Oscar
Sugar shane
Forrest
Mayorga
Spinks
Zab

(This is where it gets interesting.. Aka disputed instead of undisputed.Lol )

Then baldomir beats zab to become lineal.. Zab keeps one title and fights on against floyd..

Floyd beats zab.. Not the real title..

But floyd also beats Baldomir.. which IS the lineal title..

So this makes floyd the reigning and defending champ at welter.. Allegedly..

But honestly.. The records of titles and the men who beat the men etc tells you that floyd is the champ..

But to me.. Miguel cotto is the champ..

He has fought

Originally for the vacant wba - Carlos Quintana ( Who went on to win a legit title against paul williams and this further validates miguel cotto's destruction of a great fighter/ World class fighter in Quintana

Mandatory.. Everyone fights em.. Veteran urkal.. Stoppage win.. As expected..

Zab judah.. Hard hitter.. Exciting fight. good match making.. Former undisputed champ..

Shane mosely.. Legend, Former lineal champ.. Still on form good fight.

Gomez - Solid, classy contender status sort of fighter.. Made to look an amatuer and outclassed completely..

Next - Antonio margarito two time welterweight champion.. beast of a fighter.. More great match making..

and furthermore the winner of this fight pretty much has to be considered the lineal champ the true champ at welterweight..

The lineal champs dont fight once a year.. Which adds further question to what the wbc is all about unless they have a high profile star holding theyr titles and paying theyr sanctioning fees.. Aka floyd, aka oscar, aka seeking a bigger money fight vitali comeback.. Its the money..

And its quite possible that because of this a lineal champ, the man who beat the man will be surpassed, stripped by the public of bieng the real champ.. because of inactivity on his part and great activity by miguel cotto.

i dont even think i can remember this happening in the past..

Thoughts anyone?

Was interesting Tito BHB , in show all this trayectory and i agree with you bro...........Cotto is the Champion in WW Div..........

That was a good read. whomever wins between Cotto and Margarito should be consider the Champ at 147. Floyd would still be considered p4p #1 IMO but really has no claim anymore at 147.

floyd for me

he beat the man who beat the man

deserves to be recognised as the true champ

Spinks > Judah > Baldomir > PBF.....

The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.


Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!

Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.

Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.

Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.


Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!

Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.

Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.

Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!

Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..

And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..

The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..

So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..

Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..

the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..

What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..

And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..

Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself

And in all fairness..

It also comes down to the wbc letting who they please keep titles for the best interest of theyre organisation..

They did it when oscar won the junior middleweight title off mayorga..

they did it from when floyd took the welter title from baldo.. and then didnt defend it until he fought hatton..

because he pays the fee's.. They have the p4p number one with theyr title.. Hes had a wbc title in each class hes been in.. and they are making more money out of letting him fight one superfight a year..

Originally Posted by Tito BHB

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.


Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!

Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.

Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.

Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!

Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..

And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..

The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..

So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..

Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..

the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..

What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..

And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..

Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself

I agree with you that Cotto is the best challenger for Mayweather, but until that fight happens or Floyd vacates the championship Cotto will be the #1 contender.

The fight between Cotto & Margarito as great as it is will only create a true challenger & #1 contender for Mayweather. Until Floyd loses @ 147, retires or vacates the championship he will remain the division champion.

I understand your frustrations & opinions by why try to complicate things? Until you beat the man your not the man!

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Originally Posted by Tito BHB

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.


Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!

Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.

Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.

Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!

Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..

And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..

The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..

So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..

Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..

the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..

What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..

And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..

Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself

I agree with you that Cotto is the best challenger for Mayweather, but until that fight happens or Floyd vacates the championship Cotto will be the #1 contender.

The fight between Cotto & Margarito as great as it is will only create a true challenger & #1 contender for Mayweather. Until Floyd loses @ 147, retires or vacates the championship he will remain the division champion.

I understand your frustrations & opinions by why try to complicate things? Until you beat the man your not the man!

The question is, how long do we consider him champ? If Mayweather fights unrated welterweights, how can you justify him keeping his belt?
The last time he fought someone that was RATED as a welterweight was Baldomir I think that was almost 2 years ago.

Originally Posted by killersheep

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Originally Posted by Tito BHB

Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..

And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..

The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..

So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..

Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..

the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..

What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..

And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..

Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself

I agree with you that Cotto is the best challenger for Mayweather, but until that fight happens or Floyd vacates the championship Cotto will be the #1 contender.

The fight between Cotto & Margarito as great as it is will only create a true challenger & #1 contender for Mayweather. Until Floyd loses @ 147, retires or vacates the championship he will remain the division champion.

I understand your frustrations & opinions by why try to complicate things? Until you beat the man your not the man!

The question is, how long do we consider him champ? If Mayweather fights unrated welterweights, how can you justify him keeping his belt?
The last time he fought someone that was RATED as a welterweight was Baldomir I think that was almost 2 years ago.

He last fight was a defense of his championship against the 140 pound champion. Before that he fought a future HOF'r, next the same HOF'r. It's not as if he's inactive or fighting unranked fighters. Those last 3 fighters were all against ranked fighters.

I agree that he should be facing Cotto next instead of DLH but the 1st fight was the biggest money earner ever. Hatton followed in another big attraction. Say what you want but those 2 fights alone did more to bring boxing back to the mainstream than any other fights in the last few years.

Floyd did the right thing with the 135 pound championship, he relinquished it to move up so Castillo & Lazcano could fight for the vacant title. I have no reason he wouldn't do the same in this case.

When Paulie Ayala won the vacant Ring championship @ 122 against Bones Adams he never defended it in about 3 years & fought his last 3 fights @ 126, so give Floyd a break he just defended in his last fight.

Thanks for the replies..

Something to ponder on is this.. If he were to vacate the title.. he would have stepped out of the position of lineal champion..

But on that note.. If it werent the wbc title he holds.. He prob would have been forced to vacate it.. Like if it were ibf.. they would have said.. fight this bs mandatory.. Floyd says hell no.. And he drops the title.. that would stop him from bieng the lineal champ?.. Maybe.. i guess he is still the champ but it taints the title for whoever fights for the vacant title and technically no one is the lineal champ..

So i spose that would be the way cotto becomes the recognised champ and not the lineal champ..

So perhaps im not saying cotto should be considered lineal.. cos thats about holding the correct title that has been passed.. but that he should be the recognised champ (at least as much as floyd) until someone beats floyd or he retires..

Cos i cant see any other belt organisations letting floyd fight so long without a mandatory..

These are all ifs though.. Dont you just hate ifs..Lol

If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'

The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!

I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.

The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!

Originally Posted by Galaxy

If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'

The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!

I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.

The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!

I still recognize Floyd as p4p #1 as I mentioned earlier, but fighting people that are not ranked in the weight class mentioned, should not allow you to continue holding that weight classe's distinctive honor.

IMO Floyd lost being the 147 lb. champ when he opted to not fight anyone ranked at 147 for a year after winning the title.

Yes I respect Floyd's victory's over Hatton (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 140) and ODLH (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 154) these are things that maintain his p4p status, but have nothing to do with being a weight class champion.

Originally Posted by killersheep

Originally Posted by Galaxy

If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'

The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!

I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.

The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!

I still recognize Floyd as p4p #1 as I mentioned earlier, but fighting people that are not ranked in the weight class mentioned, should not allow you to continue holding that weight classe's distinctive honor.

IMO Floyd lost being the 147 lb. champ when he opted to not fight anyone ranked at 147 for a year after winning the title.

Yes I respect Floyd's victory's over Hatton (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 140) and ODLH (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 154) these are things that maintain his p4p status, but have nothing to do with being a weight class champion.

Hatton was a defense of his championship. During the war years champions held their titles for years without defending. I'm not saying its the same thing but everyone wanted DLH/ Mayweather 1 & the figures prove that, a lot of people wanted Mayweather/ Hatton. So Mayweather is fighting the fights the majority want to see.

I can't see how you don't recognize Mayweather as 147 champ he's never lost it in the ring & it's only been 5 months since his last defense. From when he won the championship from Baldomir it was 13 months until he defended against Hatton with the DLH fight in between. I think your being a little harsh.