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Thread: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Joe on training.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    I'm very old fashioned in my views but as soon as I see a fighter, trained by modern methods and with the modern cluster of "specialists" in his camp, that can fight 15 like they used to I'll change my views.
    Diet...Lord knows I'm clueless here but I know this. The best conditioned, strongest fighters I've ever seen were poor and poor people eat rice and beans. My experience mostly refers to fighters from Mexico- that is who I grew up watching and reading about- and rice and beans is a staple of the diet there. Emanuel Steward says the same thing; he says he cooks his fighters collard greens, beans and chicken. Jackie McCoy, the great trainer, called beans and rice "earth food" and swore that they made for strong fighters.
    Breathing is a curious subject...Lots of fighters forget to breath, especially when they get excited, like in the middle of an exchange or when things are going very well or very badly. This is often an ignored subject but here is what I think, and I learned this from a 69 year old Australian opera singer. She was very scrappy despite being 4' 11" and weighing maybe 98 pounds. (google Elizabeth Sabine).
    You breathe through your lungs. Breathe in short gulps of air; the most common way of running out of breath is not from lacking air but from having too much. If you breathe deeply but don't use up and exhale that breath, then your lungs get clogged with "bad air" and you can no longer take full breaths. So take short breaths and exhale fully- like when you punch for instance and don't forget to breathe. Doing this, you can keep your abdomen tight- so body punches don't knock the wind out of you- while moving and breathing easily.
    The last reason I think you, like many others on this site, may lack stamina, is that you train to much. Look, the early morning 4 miles of roadwork is as much to build discipline as any thing else. Rocky Marciano didn't run millions of miles but he walked every place he went. Running- alternating sprints, jogging and brisk walking- is to sharpen your wind. You should train every day and not just to prepare for a fight. Stretch in the morning every morning. Run-as explained above- three times a week, or on days you don't spar. Don't jump rope on days when you run or spar- it is over using the legs. When training to fight 4 rounds, train to fight 4, not 10 or your body will not peak properly.
    See, training for a fight is not something you begin to do when you learn about a fight. It is something you begin to do the day you begin boxing. A good, hard, sharp hour to 90 minutes a day is fine. Working 6-8 hours a day is foolish. And just get me started on cross training!
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Tom on boxing stance
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.



    Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:




    That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpantier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.

    I leave it up to you.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    More on stance:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Donny I know how you feel. The old style is just not taught by anyone. Very hard to find anything to give you an idea of how to fight this way.

    I think ultimately the thing to remember about the old style of fighting is that its a product of the bareknuckle/early glove era. Its more of a set of attitudes than it is anything really. Long rounds and barely padded gloves create interesting fighters and fighting styles. You can imagine how drastically fighters today would have to change their styles to adapt and survive those conditions. For one thing being hit anywhere hurts enough already but when you're being hit with a 5oz glove one mistake could be the last. Not only that but gloves this small could barely cover up enough of the head for blocking or offer the padding necessary to absorb the impact of punches. Being punched on your arms by something that was essentially a thinly padded fist would also be very painful. This is one of the primary differences between today's fighter and the fighters from back then. Today fighters stand still and absorb punches on their arms and gloves but in the early days of fighting the first defense came from using distance with blocking used only as a last resort. Two very different philosophies. Basically - and you will see this in the stances of fighters from the 20's/30's - the body was positioned in such a way to maximize its ability to slip and roll away from punches. In essence, to be able to create distance from punches instead of standing there and absorbing them.

    This is why you will see them standing at a slant and leaning slightly down and away from their opponents with their hands lowered. Being slanted provides a much smaller target area for your opponent. Leaning slightly down and away enhances distance and makes it easier to get behind and underneath your shoulder. Carrying the hands low enhances your vision and allows the upper body to move freely and with greater ease (since your arms aren't glued to you).

    Everything there is dedicated to making the fighter hard to land punches on whereas today the popular idea is to soak up the punches on your arms and gloves instead of preventing them from landing on you completely.


    Anyway thats one of the big things and also one of the first things to consider if you're interested in the older styles. There are more things like how that stance relates to punching and the way this stance allows you to progressively pull your opponent's punches closer/make him reach and therefore vulnerable to counters.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Tom on the Shoulder Roll:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    I've noticed that its difficult for some guys to roll not because of the actual movement it takes to do it but because they arent in a stance suited for doing it best in the first place. For me it always worked smoothly when had my hip in front almost totally sideways like burley (the only guy ive ever seen stand so sideways) and so that i wwas leaning just a bit on my back foot so that my front (left) shoulder was slightly higher than then my right. Very old school stance you'll see it alot in the 20's, 30's fighters. This makes me naturally hard to hit with rights which was always nice. Its very natural to just roll away from them since, from that stance, you are already very hard to reach with a right (literally they have to REACH) and because im so sideways the shoulder can be turned in front of the face almost instantly. Also the right uppercut counter after rolling comes off extremely smooth from this stance. Its the most natural thing to see that counter after rolling the shoulder in such a fashion.

    But you see the real sceret to the shoulder roll is not in blocking punches with your shoulder. See its really preformed more like a slip than a block. where youre rolling away from the right hand and not just eating it on your shoulder. The shoulder coming in front of the face is actually just a sort of a side effect of the rolling away movement and not the primary thing.

    I'm starting to see more fighters trying to use the shoulder roll. andre berto and jean pascal spring to mind. They're pretty ineffective to me though because they stand straight up in the air like a stick and try to forcibly push their shoulder up to cover the head. They end up just eating the punch because this forces them to block and dissallows the rolling away motion so critical to the shoulder roll. because they have no rolling away motion, the right uppercut which comes off of the shoulder roll becomes difficult for them to throw and thus pretty ineffective.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    More on stance:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

    I agree with everything you said there.

    I once held my right hand up around my cheek for the same reasons. Like you say it allows you to parry the jab or block the left hook in least amount of time possible as the hand only needs to travel a couple inches for either maneuver. One problem I encountered with this tactic (and I imagine that you also have) was that to throw a right hand - a real right hand with full weight and leverage - I had to cock back my hand. I would have to do this because the right hand was not placed in a natural position to punch. Simply put; you can't punch from your cheek. Not with any real force anyway. The right hand naturally wants to be thrown with the hand at around chest level (right side) just under the neck.

    That scares a lot of people to think about holding the right hand down there because they depend on blocking and not on slipping/rolling and controlling distance. The great irony of it is that by depending on blocking as your main means of defense you get you hit much more than you should. Slipping/rolling and controlling distance is the superior way to defend yourself from punches. Thus a proper stance would be one that best allows the body to slip/roll and control distance. I can't say that holding the hands up to the head does this.

    I agree with your point about making the body a smaller target by standing 'diagonal'. This flows back the underpinnings of smart boxing in that you should show your opponent the least amount of targets to hit as possible. This way you can control where he will try to punch to with greater predictability. If you give him many options he will act unpredictably; if you give him only some options you take away the bulk of his punches and leave him in a predictable state.

    Anyhow thanks for the response Grand. Its obvious to me that you approach boxing in very well thought out way.

    You raise good points which i never even thought of before!
    I been thinkign about what you said for a few days and it does make sense! the arm does naturally want to be thrown from beneath your chin but like you said this dos leave yoru face open. the slipping and rolling thing makes sense aswell if you can perfect it i think the slipping and rolling tactic can be very hard to perfect but when done so it would be very effective. if your like me and have not perfected it then you tend to eat alot of glove
    well thank YOU for the reply made me think about it a bit more
    yeah you definitely would eat lots of glove. You would need to drop your left hand and use your shoulder to block the right hand. With the left hand low and the right hand at chest level you will notice that your upper body can move more freely. Your arms are not bolted to your body like a robot and you can bend at the waist to get under or away from punches with greater ease. Because your gloves are not around your face they don't obstruct your vision in any way. This kind of defense depends less on taking the punches on the arms and gloves and more on seeing them coming and slipping just enough to avoid it entirely. Something will see Floyd Mayweather do tonight against De la Hoya.

    Through things like shadow boxing you can get a feel of this style with your body and in time it becomes very instinctive. It very well should be since this stance is a natural position for the body. You will notice this in your arms; they won't get heavy and tire you out because you don't have to hold them up all the time. Many people like to say this style is only for the super quick or slick but thats all bull. Like grey used to say its not some boxing magic. Up until the late 1940's it was the standard way to box.

    But I wouldn't recommend this style unless you really know the in and outs of it like you say. It can be extremely effective but the slightest miscalculations can get you clipped. The trainers out there are pretty ignorant when it comes to this so you won't get much out of them trying to learn it. I say watch some tapes and good luck if you're thinking about trying it.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    The Dempsey Roll:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    I know that Dempsey loved to lean away and under from punches by moving his upper body back towards his right. It loaded up his right hand and made him extremely hard to reach. The Dempsey roll would come after. With his upperbody positioned over towards his right side (which by the way he stood was behind him - he stood almost sideways) he would weave low so that weight would be over his left leg. This movement slipped punches and allowed him to load up on his left hook.

    The whole theme of this is to make the opponent miss whilst putting the body's weight in a position to strike. If you notice of Dempsey, he always had full leverage on every punch. You must start out in a stance similar to his to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Dempsey did it in every fight. He was also hard to hit and had very underrated defense. Too bad that because he liked to press forward he gets billed as being some kind of a savage incapable of thought. He was pretty cagey in my opinion.

    As for the move it doesn't limit your vision. I'm not sure how it would. And you're right that it leaves you in a position where you can't punch but only for the left hand. If you've seen any Dempsey you know that he likes to spring up from that crouch with a right hand. Dempsey hit pretty hard last I remember.


    He looks pretty open but know that Dempsey's upperbody was constantly moving and he used a shoulder roll. Tunney as quoted saying that Dempsey was one of the hardest fighters to hit with his right. Kept catching air or shoulder.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    The snag-line:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver.
    Ah, I call that one the snag-line. Its a good move but you must watch for your opponent's left hook as he has just completed the weight shift involved in throwing his right and is thus in position to sling his left hook at you. Ha I remember Rafael Marquez getting knocked down with just that: a left hook after "snag-lining" Israel Vasquez's Right hand with his jab. Forget if it was in the first or the second fight - probably the first.

    this makes the snag line a pretty dangerous strategy to employ. For both guys. A messy move.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Rolling with the punches:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    You're supposed to roll with punches that are blocked on the arms. What happens when fighters keep their arms and gloves in tight to the body and sides of the head is that they will just sit there and absorb punches. You're never supposed to just sit there and absorb punches. By having your arms so tightly locked to your body you hinder your ability to throw punches: how can you throw punches if both your arms are busy blocking? You're not in a position to punch.

    By rolling with the punch while blocking you take much of the steam off of their punch as it no longer has a flush target to transfer all of its force into cleanly. By rolling away you also put yourself into a position to punch and therefore counter. For example you block a left hook on your right arm and roll with it to your left as you block (weight now on left foot) putting you in a position to throw a left hook yourself. Think about that for a second and work it out in your head.

    Today its pretty popular to just sit there and absorb punches. In the 20's or 30's you would have small 8 oz nothing gloves that did not much more than cover the fist. You wouldn't want to get hit with one of those anywhere. You also notice that fighters of these eras never held there arms up to the sides of their heads. They depended on slipping and rolling more than they did on blocking and it shows in the way that they fought.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Circle Left:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharla
    I'm not sure it makes much difference assuming I take my left foot off the ground, pivot to let my foot go out a bit a little as I push sideways with my right, land with my left foot in it's new position and then follow with the right. I can see if my right was pointed in to the left more it'd be hard.

    Perhaps I also naturally let it pivot out without meaning to often since my coach often reprimands me for letting that happen. Circling left is not something I guess I practice often as we only have one southpaw in our gym and I don't spar him more than once a month or so.

    Do you see it being a lot easier with your right foot pointing out initially rather than pivoting as you are moving?
    sharla, watch fighters like bernard hopkins or floyd mayweather (2 of the best pound for pound fighters in recent memory i should add) and notice how they effortessly can circle left. notice that they arent standig facing foward as your coach instructs. by standing so squared up you movement gets comprimised. If you get the chance to, try and ask him why a fighter like bernard hopkins (who essentially stands sideways) is such an incredible boxer and why he thinks his method of boxing is superior to bernard's. I hope i'm not stirring up trouble by saying this but its best that you gets all that information, and you wont get it by blindly following everything your trainer says. trainers tend to be pretty egotistical when it comes to thing like teching boxing (if you even hint at the possibility that they might be wrong they get all huffy and take it as an insult to their worth as a teacher)
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Counterpunching:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    Here is a very very simple way to shorten the arms of an opponent with long arms and a busy jab; the funny thing is that it is THE natural counter in boxing and very difficult for him to counter.
    Here is the premise: the motion you make to slip his jab so that it passes over your right shoulder- slipping it to the "inside" position- is the exact same motion as you make to throw a straight hand. He jabs, you step slightly forward and left with your left foot shifting the wt to your left leg, etc...Your step far enough to drop your body low enough so that you are able to drive a straight to his heart; in the early days of boxing this was a legitimate ko punch and still would be were the average "modern" fighter schooled well enough to throw it. Throw this punch and come back with a left uppercut or weave outside with a hook to the body or chin. However you do it this punch will discourage his jab in short order.

    hey grey, ive been thikning more and more recently that getting your opponent to commit to his jab - that is, so he really steps in with it - should be the main starting point for the direction of the fight to unfold from. so many nice counterpunches to use should this be established. you would have to stand so that you lean a bit back and to the right (the traditional stance) though as this is the extra distance that they try to compensate for.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Thinking:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    in boxing there are only so many possible outcomes to every action preformed in the ring. it is a closed system with rules that never change. there are a limited amount of punches that can be thrown and a limited amount of reactions that the opponent can respond back with. when i jab there are only so many things that my opponent can do in response. when i hook there are only so many things he can do in response. this makes him predictable. i can position him and set up him because i know everything he can do to me and by thinking several steps in front of him i can never be suprised. to demonstrate this thought process indicative of all strategic greats in boxing and beyond i will post an excerpt of�* grandmaster alexander kotov's thought process during the 1939 ussr championship


    "What do I do here? His king is badly placed, but I still have to exploit that. I have the d- and f-files, a strong knight at d4. Must hurry before he can slip away with the king to safety at b8. His last move was rook to e4 attacking the knight. Defend it by 25.Qf2? He'll go Rd8. No, then I go 26.Qf6+ winning. So he'll go Qg5 or Qe5 centralizing, and then what do I have?

    Wait a minute. What about 25.Nf5+? He has no choice, takes and I go Rxf5. Then he can't take rook--mate on d6 by the queen. But he doesn't have to take. What do I have after Qc6 or Qc7? A piece gone. What about 25.Rf5 instead? Well we are playing for mate, so a rook down wouldn't matter if it's sound.

    If his queen moves then Qg5+ with a powerful attack. Nor can he meet the rook sac by e5, since we go Qg5+ Kf8, Ne6+. So he has to take the rook and I take on f5 with knight, check. Then his king is drawn forward. But what if he doesn't take? Say Qd6; but then I win the queen by Rxf7+ Bxf7, Nf5+.

    So he definitely has to take, and then I must have something. An interesting position! So, 25. Rf5 exf5 26.Nxf5+ Kf6 (26...Ke6 makes no difference) 27.Rd6+. Two lines. Takes the knight or rook blocks. If 27...Re6 the win is easy: 28.Qg7+ Kxf5 29.Bc2+ and now 29…Kf4 20.Qg3 mate, or 29…Re4 Qf6+ Kg4 31.Bd1+ and mate next move.


    So there remains 27. Kxf5. Then what did I see?�* Oh yes! 28.Qf3+ Rf4 (28…Kg5 and white wins simply, 29.Qf6+ Kh5 30.Bd1+ Rg4 31.Qh6 mate) 29.Qh5+ Ke4 30.Bc2+ Ke3. Can he really get away safe from there? No, there's 31 Rd3+ and wherever he goes 32. Rd2+ and mate by 33.Qe2. It's all there. Just check once more. How do I stand on the clock? Ten minutes left. I'll check again. After all it's a forced win, so time trouble won't matter too much."


    this is called a tree of analysis. essentially this is the process of "if i do this, he does that, when he does that, i do this, then he will do that, so i will do this" one cannot call himself a good boxer until he understands this process at least partially. it is actually simpler than you may think, you just must memorize every punch exchange in boxing, one for orthodox fighting and one for southpaw. there are not many and even less when fighting a southpaw if you take the time to analyze it all. my advice is learn your boxing. how can you ever be good if you never total understanding of the things happening around you, finding yourself confused and incapable when met with things you dont know how to deal with?
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    I read once that good boxers play checkers, great ones play chess...
    You are new to this, ive it time but never let your brain be inactive. Early on all those hands flying around can be a bit unsettling, as every time you get set to do something a glove bounces off your head and when you become aware of an opening it is gone before you can punch at it. When you get a lull you fire punches anywhere, not caring if they land but glad to have a chance to fire back. You can stay out of range and avoid his punches but you can't hit him either, and to go inside means getting hit, etc...
    Practice is where it all begins and ends, doing the same basic moves over and over until they are ingrained in your muscle memory, and at the same time you are training your mind. Start with shadow boxing, in front of a mirror. Imagine a real opponent throwing real punches, avoid them and counter them and do it full on like in the ring, with movement, bobbing weaving, punches slips and parries. You are not only able to see and correct your technical mistakes but you are teaching your boxing brain to evaluate and react to situations: " I want to stay outsidwe on his guy, use my jab, look to walk him into a right. He's looking to rop his right over my jab, if he can, burt he's really wanting to get close and work his left hook." Now you have an objective, an idea of traps along the way, and your opponent's goal and now you need to set to set taps for him, and so on.
    This carries over o your bag work. If you just stand there and punch the heavy bag that's how you'll fight. You have to practice moving in and out, footwork, positioning yourself to land a paticular punch or combination, all the whil being aware of his intent o hit you. So you begin be slipping his jab, stepping in with a right under the heart, weave out wit a hook to the belly and straighten up to land a right hook over his left shoulder, and then you can step safley out of range or throw a hook, etc... The key thing is to always have a scenario in mind and to do it like its real.
    Sparring as often as is possible is the most vital thing; spar daily, withany and everyone, just spar. At first you'll be dismayed at your inability to land a decent punch and at how often you get hit, but keep parring especially with people better tan you as you can learn by watching and cetainly by being on the defensiv for lengths of time against somebody that can throw combinations. Pretty soon you'll realize that half the hands in the air have nothing to do with you and can be ignored, and you won't have to think "catch this jab or parry it?", "block his hook or duck under?" because it will be second nature to you. It is now that you begin working on landing your punches, as you have no fear of moving into punching range as you can avoid or deflect or block the majority of punches. All the hours of envisioning couterpunches will pay off; you'll have trained your body to parry to the outside of the jab while hooking to the chin, for example.
    Now you can really begin to strategize in the ring; hours in the mirror have taught you that a feint this way makes you look open for a right, so you can anticipate his reaction. Your body will be instinctively protecting itself and taking counterpunching opportunities, so your mind is free to think and to analyze.

    For all my longwindedness, its just time and practice and training your mind like you train your body.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    i also think its important to dehumanize (that even a word?) boxing. how else can you get over the harsh reality inside the ring? when i fight, i fight as if i am fighting not an opponent, but boxing itself. as if i were trying to beat my best score. not making mistakes, setting up your shots, it isnt about getting the best over someone to prove how tough you are, playing the game is an end in itself.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Tom's on defense:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    i would tend to stand pretty slanted so that i was just but sideways. right hand at the chest level to parry and to draw jabs, left hand low to draw right hands. he either leads on me so i can counter, or i jab him and try to get him to counter. either way im trying to make him throw punches - and more to the point, trying to make him throw specific punches. this is typically how it goes but it gets more complicated in practice. its tricky trying to keep a guy under your thumb because you cant read minds. if you could you would be unbeatable i guess.

    the main thing with defense is that you cannot consider it without also considering other variables. like say, what counterpunch corresponds, what is he trying to set up off of this, what can i set up from this later etc. nothing in boxing is isolated - they all interweave with each other to make up the whole.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    The southpaw jab vs the orthodox jab:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    The southpaw jab vs the orthodox jab is a very large part of fighting between southpaw/orthodox but I think ultimately southpaw/orthodox is won and lost on the Southpaw left straight and the Orthodox straight right. By that I mean everything revolves around the control of this. Either in the form of stopping/avoiding it or setting up counters off of it. Its kind of at the center of southpaw/orthodox and I think the fight is won and lost on how well a fighter handles it.

    For example the natural counter for the southpaw jab is the straight right and vice versa either to the body or head (interestingly the southpaw is the one at a disadvantage because his liver is in front of his body, underneath his right arm, and therefore underneath his jab). But anyway this counter is only viable if your opponent is committing enough into his jab to allow you to counter it. So one part of the "jab war" between orthodox and southpaw is in seeing who can counter who's jab with this punch. If a fighter, in trying to win the jab war, commits too heavily into his jab, he puts himself in danger of walking face first into this counter.

    Also the two other most effective counters when fighting with a southpaw (speaking as an orthodox fighter) is the right uppercut after slipping under their straight left and the left hook after blocking the straight left on your right arm. These are deadly counters.

    Anyway my point is that in southpaw/orthodox everything ultimately comes back to how the left or straight right is handled and that plans should be developed around how to land them and how counter them. The jab is ultimately a means to that end.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Advice:

    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Benny Leonard and Henry Armstrong were both KO'd in their first fights; Billy Conn was 13-6-1 after 20. They all ended up doing pretty well, as did Monzon, and Arguello (2-2, KO'd in debut), because they were learning how to fight. Boxing is a whole bunch more than wading in throwing haymakers and splattering opponents; now and again they'd rather not get splattered and have some ideas about you. Get yourself into the best condition you can be in (i don't mean Mr Universe condition but go ten hard fast rounds and want more condition.) because this you can control; make sure your mind knows that you will not get tired. Since you are staying out of the weight room and in the gym, you'll have lots of tim to work over and over again on your defensive moves and your punches; you are developing 'large muscle memory' so that your body reacts seemingly on its own. When you spar take a moment to analyze what is going on in the ring; what is he trying to do to you and what will you do about it? Suppose that as you move about jabbing a bit, feinting more, that it becomes clear that he wants to land the left hook; well that gives you two (at least) choices, to beat the hook with a short right hand or to get under the hook and hook him to the body.... Do you see my point? Don't be in a hurry to punch for its own sake; drive that fear of getting tired out with the knowledge of your condition, and minimize the times you get hit. Condition your body to fight, then keep your brain busy plotting strategy.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Using the jab:
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Not sure exactly what you mean... See, you may throw a jab not so much to land it but to see how he plans on avoiding it. If you jab with a bit of shoulder and hip in it, while pushing off the back foot its more a straight left hand. Are you looking to draw a counter right, or doubling up to discourage one? Jabbing your way in or backing him up with a jab? Using it to take the initiative or to counter and disrupt? The rising jab of Burley, Moore and others is a very damaging counter against a guy who really steps with his jab. Never jab down or across your body. You don't need to land every one, and even if the jab misses throw the right hand/hook, or whatever anyway. Sometimes not jabbing is best- Arguello v Mancini comes to mind. Mancini hoped to slip the jab get in hit the body get out but Alexis didn't jab much or committ much when he did forcing Ray to advance and retreat under fire. Watch Ricardo Lopez, Toney, all the pros. Try to think what they are thinking as you watch what they do and don't do
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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