Thread: Roy Jones: the boxing genius

I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.

Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.

Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.

I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.

Yeah, Roy could punch from anywhere and could put pretty much any 2 punches in his arsenal together back to back. I remember against Julio Gonzalez where he threw a left hook as he jumped in and then a left uppercut as he moved back out, and it was with blinding speed. There is a very good case to be made that he is the best offensive fighter of all time and I don't have any problems with that. Don't think he was the smartest fighter of all time, either that or he lost all his smarts with age which I doubt because he's fought a bunch of really dumb fights here recently especially against Johnson who is a smart fighter himself.

Also, the reason Roy looked so super human was one, because he didn't fight the competition of the others for the better part of his prime. And since he was a great offensive fighter, he didn't have to fight as much to the level of his opponents. Whitaker would work with what was given to him, he would create openings with his defense much of the time instead of forcing the issue but in reality he was just as dominant as Roy was as far as convincingly beating opponents and also doing things many did not think was possible for a fighter to do.

I disagree. I think his intelligence in the ring needed his body to do what his mind wanted it to do. He's only really gotten his ass kicked once in terms of the technique of the right. In RJJ-Tarver 2 he got hit by an honest ridiculously clean shot that could have landed on anyone. Tarver was a good fighter. Only Glen Johnson really beat the shit out of Roy JOnes and made him look really flawed. By then Roy wasn't the same fighter so its not really a fair judgment to make. Its like Ali-Holmes, but Johnson isn't anywhere near as good as Holmes in any sense.

Roy is the smartest fighter at what he did, nobody ever dominated like him except maybe welterweight Robinson, but the fight game has evolved since then. Roy definitely did things differently, saying he was unorthodox would be the understatement of the century, but his style worked.

The only other person I see up there with him in terms of intelligence in the ring is Hopkins, but its hard to say unless they fought now where they are physically on a more equal playing field because in his prime Roy was always too good athletically for Bernard.

Best offensive fighter? Ray Robinson without a doubt, He threw combinations like Roy, he had as close to Roy's abilites as anyone, but not quite. What makes his offense better, but his overall ring intelligence less so is that he was willing to trade to land his punches.That definitely was the style back then, but because of that he landed a lot cleaner punches on his opponents, and he was a bigger welterweight then Roy was at SMW. What made Roy so special is he could do everything he did offensively, and still he was almost impossible to hit, and that takes more then just overwhelming athletic ability to accomplish, I've only seen him, whitaker, pep, and Mayweather really to it at the level they did, and Benitez to a lesser to degree when he was on top of his game.

I agree he is the most gifted/talented boxer ever.

He took the fundermental art to a whole new level... In the respect of some of his punching style, it was almost like street fighting in the sense, "i'm here, the other guy's there, his head is there, now I have to get this fist, into his head" then bang, he'd launch into attack and usually with devestating consequences to the other guys head... Yet in every fundermental respect, he was as fine tuned as they come...

He's one fighter that you just cannot use the word "overrated" for... I have absolutely no doubt that a prime Roy (and prime Roy was prime Roy), he could be thrown in with anyone of the past that competed in his main weight divisions, and he would never have less than a 50/50 chance of knocking them out...

For all his ability to not get hit (which was truely among the best guys out there), he could take punches well, he stayed relax even while being brawled on the ropes, and still was one of the best and most effective attacking boxers of recent times...

A once in a decade boxer....

Originally Posted by Taeth

I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.

Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.

Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.

I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

Originally Posted by Taeth

Best offensive fighter? Ray Robinson without a doubt, He threw combinations like Roy, he had as close to Roy's abilites as anyone, but not quite. What makes his offense better, but his overall ring intelligence less so is that he was willing to trade to land his punches.That definitely was the style back then, but because of that he landed a lot cleaner punches on his opponents, and he was a bigger welterweight then Roy was at SMW. What made Roy so special is he could do everything he did offensively, and still he was almost impossible to hit, and that takes more then just overwhelming athletic ability to accomplish, I've only seen him, whitaker, pep, and Mayweather really to it at the level they did, and Benitez to a lesser to degree when he was on top of his game.

Always the Roy tribute threads/posts make me want to dust off all my old RJJ fights to watch again...

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

Originally Posted by Taeth

I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.

Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.

Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.

I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.

Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.

Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

Originally Posted by Taeth

I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.

Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.

Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.

I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.

Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.

So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

Ok so who had better athletic gifts than Roy Jones? WHo could play a semi pro basketball game and then dominate an opponent 12 rounds the same night? Hit a guy with 4 left hooks in a second? Whip guys WITHOUT using a jab?

There was no better athlete in boxing that Roy Jones, simply put he was a freak of nature and there will never be a guy who can do the things he could in the ring.

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.

Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.

So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.

Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.

Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.

Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.

So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.

Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.

P4P? a rather strange comment seen as a prime Leonard couldnt get away from Hearns jab and right hand. And a Lightweight Duran was an animal i think Roys lack of workrate and lack of chin would be exposed.

Like i said if Roy fought those guys at there best weight. A win over James Toney and a gift over Antonio Tarver doesnt cut it for me im affraid. And again Leonard did things that Jones did and it was always against cans he could get away with it.

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

Ok so who had better athletic gifts than Roy Jones? WHo could play a semi pro basketball game and then dominate an opponent 12 rounds the same night? Hit a guy with 4 left hooks in a second? Whip guys WITHOUT using a jab?

There was no better athlete in boxing that Roy Jones, simply put he was a freak of nature and there will never be a guy who can do the things he could in the ring.

You never seen Curtis Davis or Mr Perfect?

Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.

Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.