Thread: Why Isn't There More Written on Liston?

Topic question. I find myself digging around a lot in old news archives and I've learned a great great deal about the history of boxing from those especially the heavyweights. However, there is just soooo little written about Sonny Liston compared to the other heavyweight champs from that time period, it's just weird. Was it just because boxing really was on the decline before Ali came along or was it something else. It's a bit bizarre really, most of the articles are articles that are just accounts of fights or previews then just stuff on how he passed. Then I began to dig a little deeper and it turns out there is only a handful of biographies about the man and as it turns out only 1 caught on with a major publisher thus only 1 actually has reviews to it and they aren't overwhelming. Weird, anyone have any explanations?

I search elibrary an online database of basically all media and I get 348 items displayed after hen I eliminate the search term "Muhammad Ali." I due the same for Floyd Patterson and it returns over 1500 media and articles.

In fact in his own time I have never found an in depth piece on Liston, who he was ect. Could he be the most shadowy figure in boxing history? Does anyone have any explanations for this and can anyone reccommend a biography of some sort?

Cause the cat was a thug
Remember when he won the title?
He though there'd be a crowd waiting for him when his plane land
-insert crickets here-
No mother showed up

Sad really-the dude clean out the division
While Floyd was kept safely away
Then was played the fool by Ali

With the exception of his short spell as champion, a lot of Liston's life was shrouded in secrecy. He was an ex-con who went everywhere in a dark limo accompanied by an entourage of heavies, and certainly wasn't the approachable type.
Although he had one of the finest left jabs the division has ever seen, his resume is hardly murderers row. His best victories being against Zora Foley, Floyd Patterson, Cleveland Williams and Eddie Machen, who were some of the best guys around, but this was in quiet void beween Marciano & Ali.. It should also be noted that Liston made the mistake of ducking the big punching Mac Foster, in preference to taking on the young pretender, Cassius Clay. Well we all know what happened next, he got thoroughly schooled & humiliated by a 22 year old genius..
Liston never regained the title and went on to lose to Leotis Martin & beat Chuck Wepner.
Shortly after retirement, he was found dead in his apartment, reputedly from a drugs overdose, although many say he was executed in a gangland feud. I'd say it's reasonable to suggest that not a lot is written about him, because, such the nature of his character, not a lot is actually known about him.

George Foreman always spoke decently about Sonny Liston. He used to follow him around then he found out he was illiterate. Basically shutting everyone out of his personal life not really talking to fans etc. I always had questions about the man but he was just too damn shady.He rolled with gangsters and was a well known thug, loneshark thing's of that sort. I will also feel to this day that he threw the second Ali fight.Given what we seen on film and only two camera angles. One in which we all see and another that is not shown in public why is this?

The Devil and Sonny Liston was a good book but it left more questions than answers.

I don't think he threw the second Ali fight. It's possible but it's not like the "phantom punch" was a knockout blow. People forget he actually got up (which is why I always found the story behind that famous Ali picture misleading) and continued fighting after the knockdown. Joe Walcott didn't keep a count so it was after they started fighting that he broke up the action because the timekeeper said he counted to 10.

If Liston was going to throw the fight, I always imagined he would have stayed down but who knows. Given the fact that he got up though I always felt that to be an unfair assumption.

Originally Posted by amat

I don't think he threw the second Ali fight. It's possible but it's not like the "phantom punch" was a knockout blow. People forget he actually got up (which is why I always found the story behind that famous Ali picture misleading) and continued fighting after the knockdown. Joe Walcott didn't keep a count so it was after they started fighting that he broke up the action because the timekeeper said he counted to 10.

If Liston was going to throw the fight, I always imagined he would have stayed down but who knows. Given the fact that he got up though I always felt that to be an unfair assumption.

I disagree totally Sonny Liston acted like he had been shot by a shotgun, the way he was rolling on the canvas was ridiculous, considering the punch was a grazing shot. There was something for certain shady about that fight, and lets also remember Bruce Seldon took a dive against Mike Tyson, and similar to Sonny Liston. Still got up and what appeared to be a missed punch above Bruce Seldon's head.

Very true but I will always look at the facts there is a reason this fight( the second one) which was the biggest fight at the time held in a gymnasium that would sit no more than 2000 people. There is a reason there is only 2 camera's one that does not show the knockdown and one that does. When the punch was landed Ali's back leg was in mid-air thus losing alot of force and Liston who was well known at one time been beaten simultaneously beaten by five cops with billy clubs, still stood his ground but in this instant he is rolling around as the poster above wrote "like he had been shot by a shotgun. While Liston was rolling on the ground he gets up appearing to be groggy but when Jersey Joe listens to what the timekeeper says and walks away Ali lunges forward Liston throw's his hands up to protect his temples in a blink of an eye. Appearing to me whatever cloudiness was in his head was gone. Then Walcott comes back over ,waves the fight off and Liston hangs his head and walks back to his corner. The punch Ali landed in my mind was half force and a grazing arm punch and I will always feel Liston threw the fight.

Originally Posted by amat

I don't think he threw the second Ali fight. It's possible but it's not like the "phantom punch" was a knockout blow. People forget he actually got up (which is why I always found the story behind that famous Ali picture misleading) and continued fighting after the knockdown. Joe Walcott didn't keep a count so it was after they started fighting that he broke up the action because the timekeeper said he counted to 10.

If Liston was going to throw the fight, I always imagined he would have stayed down but who knows. Given the fact that he got up though I always felt that to be an unfair assumption.

One thing's for sure. Jersey Joe made a right pigs ear of officiating the fight.
Ali spent more time standing over him than Walcott did.

He was a freak of nature, but I don't think he was all that popular, and his career kind of fell into a darkspot in the history of the heavyweight division, before Ali and Frazier and all those greats, Liston was overwhelmingly dominant over the rest of the heavyweights, its kind of like the Klitschko brothers now, without hte injuries and weak chin. If you took those away from the brothers, the division would likely be dead until somebody phenomenal came along(a David Haye with a great chin type guy).

Originally Posted by The Fightfan

Very true but I will always look at the facts there is a reason this fight( the second one) which was the biggest fight at the time held in a gymnasium that would sit no more than 2000 people. There is a reason there is only 2 camera's one that does not show the knockdown and one that does. When the punch was landed Ali's back leg was in mid-air thus losing alot of force and Liston who was well known at one time been beaten simultaneously beaten by five cops with billy clubs, still stood his ground but in this instant he is rolling around as the poster above wrote "like he had been shot by a shotgun. While Liston was rolling on the ground he gets up appearing to be groggy but when Jersey Joe listens to what the timekeeper says and walks away Ali lunges forward Liston throw's his hands up to protect his temples in a blink of an eye. Appearing to me whatever cloudiness was in his head was gone. Then Walcott comes back over ,waves the fight off and Liston hangs his head and walks back to his corner. The punch Ali landed in my mind was half force and a grazing arm punch and I will always feel Liston threw the fight.

To be fair though I was watching something on ESPN classic (UK) and Bert Sugar talks about the punch then shows some photo's where the spray is flying off liston's head, not saying it was a KO punch but that coupled with the refereeing debacle makes a reasonable arguement that the fight was not thrown. Then again, Liston was heavily involved with gangsters who are notorious for fixing fights for the benefit of gambling, so who knows?

The most telling thing about that fight IMO is that Ali was shouting at Liston to get up. His immediate reaction was that it wasnt a knock down blow.

Originally Posted by Taeth

He was a freak of nature, but I don't think he was all that popular, and his career kind of fell into a darkspot in the history of the heavyweight division, before Ali and Frazier and all those greats, Liston was overwhelmingly dominant over the rest of the heavyweights, its kind of like the Klitschko brothers now, without hte injuries and weak chin. If you took those away from the brothers, the division would likely be dead until somebody phenomenal came along(a David Haye with a great chin type guy).

I think you are being harsh on Vitali, he has a good chin, I know where your coming from though, I think the division now is similar in skill to the Liston and Patterson era.

On the other hand Liston was the kind of guy who went out there to blow his opponent out quick, but as the brothers have got older BOTH have become more shall we say "thinking fighters" that take their time and pick their opportunities wisely.

He was not a champion for a long time but he did intimidate a lot of people in the short space he was champion.