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Thread: Oldschool Briliance

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  1. #1
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    Default Oldschool Briliance

    Let's start with some basic ideas about laverage... So everything starts with the stance. For simlicity i am going to take here the sideways stance(feeds are on the center line) and the squere stance (with the feeds diagonal to the center line). With this stances we have 3 lines on which we generate maximum impact force... In the sideways stance this is the centerline itself. About the square stance if we imagine that our feeds are the end ponts of the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle with equal sides than the oder to lines of fire are the axis with go through the sides of the triangle (i hope this makes sance). So if we want to hit some one the best way to do it is to put the target area on this lines of fire. Why?

    First lets take the sideways stance. If we are so sideways we can ram the oder guy with our jab. This means we can put all our weight behind the jab. Some example watch some Sonny Liston fights. He stays on distance sideways and rams with his long hands or George Forman in his comeback.
    In the square stance we use our body like a fast rotating cylinder. At the moment of the impact its best to have the hand and the vector of the force generated from the leg to be not only in the same direction, but in the same plane. In this situation there are no sideways resulting forces... All the force goes in the target and we have optimal balace! For the square stance i am going to use Forman again as a model for leverage. I think that the best way is to watch some fights and see it for yourself... Just some fotos for more understanding:


    So what is all about? The idea is very simple. We wish that our oponent is on our lines of fire and we are not on his! So lets watch some fights to see how we can use all this.


    Lets start easy. Obsurve how Walcott retreats. His head is of the line of fire from Rocky. But as he hits the ropes he has only one choice. He can go only to his left because Rocky has cut the ring... Joe makes his step to the left and his head goes exacty on the line of fire from Marciano. So lets wrap up the situation. Rocky was sideways to Walcott pressuring him. And Joe moved to his left becouse he was cut off, but this made Rocky squared relative to Walcot without to move and in purfect position to punch!(If rocky was jabing moving forward would have sayed "Rocky set him up with the jab". I mean with this that he gained the position with the jab and that he must not jab before every punch he throws...)

    Lets move to something more complex. Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling I. This is typicat example of positioning and defence...

    On the distance they both stayed sideways and jabed each oder. Why?

    Because of the leverage. In order Louis to punch with his right he must go to his left to square himself with Schmeling. And here all problems for Louis begin. And a second later we land in this position :

    Joe has punched with his jab moving to his left. His goal was to square himself with Schmeling to unload, but Joe has squared Max with this movement and has placed his head on the line of fire of Schmeling. Here comes the next mistace. Joe drops his left hand, opening him self for right counters... THat the briliance of the oldtimers. To be able to punch someone, who is boxing so sideways, with the right or non flying left hook you must put your self on his lines of fire first!

    Lets see now an oder briliant fight. The first fight between Joe Louis and Joe Walcott. This is the fight where Walcott brings Louis to school. I think that some history is necessery about the fight to be understand better. First let us talk about Joe Walcott. He was gut athlet, really gifted mentally, but no one expected from him to win. He was there to perform, to give some chalenge to Louis but at the end only to show how good Louis was. From his stand point of view he has his kids who don't have anything to eat! He must win no metter what! On oder hand we have Louis. The super star. With him the question was not how, but when he will end the fight! He has the pressure of the wight and black communitys on his sholders. And that was really unfortunate for him in this fight. He was forced in the trap of Walcott. Watch the fight. How it begins they are on the distance than Walcott faints and walks away. He make this move consistantly. The publick starts to boooing. But he doesn't give a crap, he must feed his family. He makes it again and again and again. On oder hand Louis is pressured. He must perform and he starts to make something that he never do. He starts to rush his punches, lunging in. That's what make Walcott so great! He make his oponent to play his game! To make someone like Louis to make it is really a masterpiece. Watch the fight and enjoy the game! Watch how Walcott moves his head away from Louises lines of fire while menawhile setting Louis on his big guns! Knowing where Louis is and how he is oriented to him, Walcott can make his oponent so easy to miss, becouse he knows what is comming! Simple leverage and controlling it!

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Good stuff! Louis/Schmeling I is one of my favorite tactical fights of all time. Schmeling's positioning made it hard for Louis to throw combinations and enabled Schmeling to keep the fight between his greatest strength (his excellant right hand) and the biggest weakness of Louis (a tendency to drop his jab).

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    My favourite recent piece of positioning was martinez vs. williams 2.
    Martinez had been giving ground. He did something I like- he took one step back from the centre of the ring and then moved laterally, so as not to sacrifice too much ground.
    Williams changed direction when Martinez took a lateral and allowed his back to face the ropes. This allowed Martinez a direct root to the centre of the ring, across the face of Williams. Martinez threw the overhand left moving across Williams and a wonderful KO was the result. I believe this was a purposeful move and I enjoyed the ring awareness.

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Something looked odd to me about that fight, and then it hit me. Two southpaws!!!!!!
    When did that become acceptable?

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Ha yes, its rare to see two southies fight- rarer to see two left handed guys that want to mix it.
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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Gee even the sound has two hits landing. The commentators are confused right hand , no left hand, williams threw the left hand williams is down
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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    I'm sure the ref is still there, counting while the doctor is rolling him over...

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    In my opinion, movement wise, 2 of the greatest tactitians have been The mangoose Archie Moore and Marvin HAgler, these 2 knew where to get the guys exactly where they wanted it in a position to hit them with combos.
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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Ezzard Charles was another great master of ring generalship
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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Ezzard was briliant, but i think he used the how idea different from lets say Walcott, Moore and Burley. I have watch closely only the havywaight fights from him and for me this makes sence. He is staying all the time sideways and jabing. If his oponent wants so badly to punch Ezzard he must go throug the sholder ... which places his head at perfect positioning to be hit. And i like that he uses most as counter the left hook(in the same movements Tonney preferes the right). He is all the time safe! Its sad to see such an athlet don't going all out. The dead of Sam Baroudi must have been a great shock for him But never the less when some one whant to watch solid deffence and smart boxinf Ezzard is the guy!
    Where Charles was smartly outboxing his oponents the oder 3 forced their game on the oponent. They were awlays fainting, sucking and moving.

    I want to give some examples of bad understanding of the principles... Klitschko vs. Arreola. When i heared Arreola saying that he has worked on his head movement i have already cholked myself. Watch him running away from the left in ... the straight right!

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    Although I've noticed that Vitali is very good at manoeuvring people into his right hand a lot.

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    Default Re: Oldschool Briliance

    @nikola_ganchev

    good read!

    I am trying to decipher your post...

    feeds = feet?

    "With this stances we have 3 lines on which we generate maximum impact force... "

    Which ones? You only name one: "In the sideways stance this is the centerline itself."

    "About the square stance if we imagine that our feeds are the end ponts of the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle with equal sides than the oder to lines of fire are the axis with go through the sides of the triangle (i hope this makes sance)"

    It is VERY HARD to comprehend

    Could you explain a bit better alll the pictures you posted and what do the lines mean (apart from the centerline, which is obvious). Also what do the "circles" mean?
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