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Thread: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

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    Default Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Hi Everyone,
    Here's an outstanding two-part article written by the very sharp Connor Ruebusch on the late, great Archie Moore and his "Lock" system. I don't remember if I mentioned this in a past post, but back in 1981, I had the honor and privilege of spending a few days being taught and trained by Mr Moore (who came to our gym via his friendship with my coach). I was in high school at the time and not that knowledgeable about who he was. With that, I didn't really appreciate how fortunate I was to spend time with him.

    While he shared a lot with me and my teammates, when I look back, I wish I would have picked his brains more. Anyway, it was very cool to hang out and learn from Mr Moore.

    Alright, moving on, this article is quite long, and since there's a 10,000 character limit per post, I'll break it up into several parts to accommodate it.

    I think many of you here will really enjoy this article. I certainly did. So, sit back, relax, and read on...

    Take Care,
    Lito

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Solving Styles: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and the Lock, part 1
    By Connor Ruebusch on Jun 11 2014

    There is an old and, frankly, overused saying in combat sports that "styles make fights." Like most cliches, the phrase persists because it contains a universal truth. The same fighter can beat a champion one day and lose to a mere journeyman the next, simply because the journeyman had a style that he didn't quite know how to solve. It is this enigma that makes history's greatest fighters all the more impressive, because they are the ones who solve every opponent put in front of them.

    It's rarely an accident, however, that these legends manage to beat all comers. In fact, more often than not, it's the result of intelligent, systematic fighting, which means intelligent, systematic training. Systematic is the key word here; there is a difference, you see, between a system and a style. Whereas "style" denotes the way one likes to fight, "system" denotes the various tools that allow one to do so. A system is all about solving problems that athleticism and personality alone can't crack.

    I'll share with you a quote from my mentor Luis Monda that sums it up perfectly.

    "When a fighter is trying to hit you, he's asking a question. Your punches are responses. In [a system], there are specific answers to most questions."

    In short, styles make fights, but systems solve styles.

    In this series I will aim to break down some of history's most iconic systems, as used by their most famous practitioners. Like taking apart a powerful engine, it is my hope that by "reverse engineering" these systems we might gain not only a greater understanding of them, but a greater appreciation for what these fighters accomplished.

    In this first installment, we examine Archie Moore's famous cross-armed guard.

    What is the Lock?

    Let's first examine the most iconic element of Moore's system, the so-called "cross-armed guard" or, as Archie's son Billy Moore terms it, "the Lock." To do that, we'll have to delve into the mists of boxing history.

    The exact historical origin of this technique is not easy to suss out, but it's clear that it did not start with Moore. Throughout his career Archie was quick to sing the praises of his trainer, Hiawatha Grey, so perhaps it was he who first taught Moore the technique. This seems likely, given that Grey was a relic of bare-knuckle boxing where, as we'll soon see, this technique has its origins, though it clearly predates even him. Grey's last verified fight took place in 1930, and the cross-armed guard, or at least the barebones concept behind it, is much older than that.

    The most notable attribute of Moore's defensive shell, namely the "cross-armed" aspect, is certainly a very old technique. Here a similar maneuver is illustrated in a manual ca. 1825.


    A Celebrated Pugilist, The Art and Practice of Boxing, 1825

    The manual refers to this technique as "barring a blow", and it describes a motion wherein the arm is thrown across the spot where an incoming punch is expected to land, to both stop it and carry it off-line, hopefully off-balancing the attacker and even exposing him to counters.

    In these days combination punching was not highly emphasized. Boxers were taught to throw their full weight forward into their strikes, making it difficult to follow one committed attack with another (you can see this from the attacker in the example above). As such, defense was comprised mostly of blocks and parries, and pugilists would attempt to pick off each blow as they saw it coming.

    By the end of the 19th century, however, boxers were learning that they could bypass the opponent's defenses by throwing two, three, or more punches in quick succession. Feinting was already common practice (this is the reasoning behind the constant "windmilling" of the arms you see in very old fight footage), but by following their first strike with another, and another, early prizefighters found they could land even after one or two successful defenses. Thus, around the turn of the century we begin to see a higher occurrence of "double guards," or covers, such as the high guard still common today, and prototypes of the cross-armed guard used by Moore.


    Professor Donovan, The Art of Boxing and Self-Defense, 1902

    Here a cross-armed guard is modeled by heavyweight Gus Ruhlin, who fought both Jim Jeffries and Bob Fitzimmons, two of the most important names in boxing history, in the span of one year (losing to both, but there's no shame in that). Professor Donovan, the author of the manual containing this image, advises boxers that such a guard "should be rarely used; and is only really necessary when your opponent brings both hands to play simultaneously or in rapid succession", driving home the point that effective combination punching was still something of a novelty at the time.

    Looking at it, it really is a practical guard. Unlike the typical high guard of today, this cross-armed guard places a higher emphasis on stopping straight punches. The right arm, thrown across the face with the hand on the left shoulder, protects the entire jawline as well as the nose and mouth (particularly when the chin is held a bit lower than by Mr. Ruhlin here), leaving only the hard dome of the skull exposed. Also unlike today's high guard, peripheral vision is unimpeded, enhancing one's ability to make active defensive adjustments. The left arm, meanwhile, is placed across the stomach, covering the most vulnerable parts of the torso: the spleen, the liver, and the solar plexus. The last was a primary target in the bare-knuckle days--the straight punch to the solar plexus was such a sought-after blow that this part of the body was referred to by boxers as "the mark"--so it's no surprise that many early guards strove to protect it.


    Continued on the next post...

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Continuing on with part one...

    Moore improved on this already comprehensive design by adjusting the positioning of his body, furthering the ability of his arms to cover and protect. Pulling his head back and sinking into his right hip, Moore could bring his left shoulder and elbow up to cover the line of his chin, or he could shift to his left hip and raise his right elbow to defeat an incoming left hook. Moore also discovered that by changing levels, crouching and rolling with his upper body, his head, shoulders, and crossed arms would obstruct the opponent's line of sight, enabling him to sneak punches in from unexpected angles.

    This ability to obfuscate and disguise intentions is perhaps the best and most underappreciated element of Archie's Lock. For we can't ignore the fact that, with both arms crossed over the body, a boxer is not in prime position to attack. "Barring" was more immediately viable in the bare-knuckle days whence it came to prominence, because Broughton's Rules, which governed the sport, allowed virtually every kind of hand strike.


    Donald Walker, Defensive Exercises, 1840

    Here, a boxer bars a straight right from his opponent, leaning back as he does so. Note that the knuckles of his right hand are turned out as he draws his hand fully across, over his left shoulder. The author of this manual, Donald Walker, writes that this position is especially useful for "the Mendoza style", by which he means Daniel Mendoza, arguably the very first "scientific" boxer. Mendoza was well known by his fondness for a blow called "the Chopper," a backfist which was brought swinging down onto the face of the opponent from precisely the position shown above.

    By the 1880s, glove boxing and the new Queensbury Rules that governed it put an end to such "unmanful" strikes as the Chopper, prohibiting boxers from striking with any part of the hand but the fore-knuckles. The most obvious counter from the cross-armed guard illegalized, another method of attacking from this defensive shell would need to be devised for it to remain viable.

    Back we go to Moore's adaptation, or rather the adaptation of Moore's era, as boxers like Paolino Uzcudun were using similar tactics years before the Old Mongoose came to prominence. As I mentioned above, Moore's system was based on body movement. Ducking, rolling, turning, and slipping, Moore would hide his weapons from his opponent's sight. Turning to his right, he would hide his right hand behind his left shoulder. Turning left, he would lower his head and hide his left under his right arm. He would also use his crossed arms from this position to lever his opponent on the inside, creating space to throw his punches.

    If one were really desperate for historical comparisons, one could trace this facet of Moore's style all the way back to sword and buckler fencing, in which the buckler, a small shield, was used less for static defense and more as a means of hiding one's sword from the opponent, thus preventing him from reading the attack. This folio, from Royal Armouries Manuscript, shows the concept clearly.


    Unknown, Royal Armouries MS I.33, folio 11v, ca. 1320

    Many of the bare-knuckle boxing manuals referenced already contain sections on swordplay, so this connection isn't as much of a stretch as it may seem at first. Given the fact that English boxing stemmed directly from rapier and smallsword fencing, however, not sword and buckler, and the fact that there were several well-established schools of pure boxing by the end of the 19th century, it is more likely that Moore's application of the cross-armed guard developed wholly within the sport of boxing itself. Still, the connection is intriguing.

    So ends part one of this analysis. With the history of the Lock out of the way, tomorrow I will be using videos and GIFs of Moore and his various stylistic descendants to analyze the facets of his particular system. At the risk of making it sound too exciting, I'll tell you this: there's a flow chart. Make sure to check back tomorrow morning for that!


    Continue onto part two in the next post...

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Hi Again Everyone,
    If you thought part one was really good, you're going to enjoy part two even more. So, once again, sit back, relax, and read on...

    Take Care,
    Lito

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Solving Styles: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and the Lock, part 2
    By Connor Ruebusch on Jun 12 2014

    Yesterday, we explored the history behind the famous cross-armed guard of Archie Moore, also known as the Lock. As a basic technique, the cross-armed guard goes back into the early 19th century at least, but it was Archie Moore who made it his signature. Today we will look into his unique application.

    Until the time of George Foreman, and later Bernard Hopkins, Moore was the oldest fighter to ever hold a world title, as good an endorsement of his defensive prowess as one could ask for. And while he may not have held his belt as long as those men, he spent far longer than either in the sport, winning his first professional bout in 1935 and fighting his last in 1963. In addition, Moore still holds, and probably always will, the record for most knockouts with an astounding 131 fights ended inside the distance, making him one of the most complete fighters to ever set foot in the squared circle.

    All of this points to the one thing that truly made Moore great, that is, his mind. He was not an exceptional athlete, nor did he possess an iron jaw, nor incredible speed. What Moore possessed that gave him such outstanding longevity was a system. There was no situation that could arise in the ring that Moore did not have a prepared and meticulously trained answer to. In a 1955 interview with Sports Illustrated, Moore said of his fighting philosophy, "I try to build a bridge. With each punch I try to build a bridge so I can escape over it if something goes wrong. That's what you call escapology. That's what I call escapology."

    Moore had many such "bridges" in his system. In an attempt to "reverse engineer" Archie's game, I've put together one of my geekiest creations yet. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Archie Moore flow chart.


    (Click to enlarge)

    Now, before we explore some of these paths, I should point out that this is by no means a complete layout of Moore's system. In this chart we have his set responses to three basic punches--the jab, cross, and hook, and each path assumes that the opponent has led with the jab first. It doesn't account for such subtleties as range and angle, which would play a huge part in determining Moore's punch selection. Don't let this fool you into thinking that Moore was at a loss if his man started his assault with a hook, or a lead right; likewise, don't let the fact that my chart doesn't include Archie's various leads and feints lead you to believe that he was strictly a counter fighter. In 219 trips to the prizefighting ring, Moore made it very clear that he had a plan for every eventuality, and a tool to account for every possible opening.

    It would simply be too difficult to put together, and likely to read a chart that covered every technique in Moore's vast system. Nonetheless, this pared-down version gives a pretty good idea of Moore's basic defenses and counters against an average, run-of-the-mill boxer.

    Many Answers

    One of the keys to Moore's incredible success was the number of options to which he could turn in response to each attack from his opponent. In 1958, Moore defended his light heavyweight title for the 7th time against Yvon Durelle, and in the first round paid the price for using too predictable a defense against the tough Canadian.



    About a minute into round one Durelle caught Moore cold. Before this sequence Moore had already settled into a predictable pattern, and you can see the continuation of that pattern at the beginning of this GIF. Durelle, right hand cocked, prods Archie with a jab, and the Mongoose slips it to the outside, attempting to counter with a right hand. To his immense credit, Durelle tries the jab again, and drops a perfectly timed right hand immediately behind it. Moore slips the jab the same exact way, perhaps looking for another counter right, and puts his head right in the path of Durelle's punch.

    This is the risk of having only one answer to a given threat. Why choose this, an example of Moore getting dropped, as the first in an article about Moore's prowess? Well, Archie Moore was not the kind of man to make the same mistake twice. For those of you who have never seen this fight: Moore, despite looking all but dead after that right hand above, got up, adapted, and fought ten more rounds before knocking Durelle out (though he would go down twice more before the end of the first).

    Once Durelle proved he could put a killer punch behind that jab, Moore became obsessed with defeating it. First, he began slipping the jab to the inside, preventing it from blinding him to a potential follow-up right hand. Throughout round two he began circling to Durelle's right, ostensibly moving into his right hand, but actually moving away from the left he needed to set it up, and therefore forcing Durelle to either constantly adjust or else throw a naked right hand that proved much easier to dodge. Of course, Moore's defense alone didn't get him 131 knockouts--his counters did, and Moore didn't even need a half round of recovery before he started countering with ill intent. Let' go to the flow chart.


    (Click to enlarge)

    Slipping inside the jab, Moore ends up with his head slightly forward and his weight on his left foot. From this position, his left hook is cocked and loaded, and Moore has never been shy about throwing it.



    Note how Moore is constantly pivoting to Durelle's right, even as he throws his punches and avoids those of his opponent. This keeps Durelle from setting his feet and throwing combinations of punches while Moore recovers from the brutal first round.

    As the fight wore on, Moore's defense of the jab became more and more varied, until Durelle began to forget about the reason he was throwing it in the first place. Instead of throwing combinations off of his jab, Durelle became so frustrated that he couldn't land it, and so flummoxed by the fact that Moore was constantly in different positions after avoiding it, that he repeatedly eschewed his power punches altogether. Moore, in response, grew ever more comfortable in his ability to counter it, even going back to the outside slip that had nearly gotten him knocked out in the opening frame.



    As the chart says, so Moore does.



    Here, tired and frustrated in the 10th round, Durelle feints. Moore reacts, throwing up his right hand to catch Durelle's jab. Durelle commits to a real jab next, but Moore doesn't go back to the same defense. Instead, he slips outside the jab and comes back over the top with a heavy right hand. Still wary of Durelle's power, Archie doesn't pounce to follow up on his staggered foe, but instead cautiously reestablishes the range with a short step back.


    Continuing on the next post...
    Last edited by StrictlySP; 10-25-2014 at 09:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Continuing on with part two...

    Even when he was so resoundingly effective, though, Moore didn't rest on his laurels. Rightly so, because Durelle was still looking for the kill.



    Here, Durelle throws out his jab, and then lunges in with a right hand after a moment of hesitation, the same combination that dropped Moore before. This time he's not so lucky.

    Moore's poise is admirable in this exchange, which took place and the eleventh and, ultimately, final round of the fight. By this point in the fight, despite hitting the canvas four times, he's thoroughly figured Durelle's game, while Durelle hasn't even seen all of Moore's tricks yet. As the challenger flashes his jab, Moore thinks about countering with his own left hand. It's barely perceptible, the movement of his left only noticeably if you're really looking closely for it, but that's exactly what Durelle was doing. Thinking to catch Moore mid-punch, Durelle lunges into a right hand the moment he sees Moore about to punch. In doing so, however, he throws himself completely off balance. He can't be blamed for his zeal, as the right hand that dropped Moore in round one only landed as solidly as it did because Durelle was willing to fall in, extending the reach on his punch, but this time Moore is ready for it, and his own attempted punch hasn't put him out of position at all.

    Adjusting to the new threat, Moore shoulder rolls the right hand to set up his counter, a perfectly placed cross to the chin. Unlike the shoulder roll of Floyd Mayweather Jr, with whom we tend to associate the technique, Moore prefers to execute his version from long range. Instead of parrying the opponent's punch with his left shoulder, Moore uses the rolling motion as more of an evasive maneuver, squaring his shoulders to present his centerline, and then suddenly turning, taking his opponent's target away. As you can see, it usually caused them to miss big.

    Here's another example of Moore's unique shoulder rolling technique, from his ill-fated encounter with heavyweight legend Rocky Marciano.



    Again, Moore places himself at a rather long distance from his opponent, forcing Marciano to badly overextend himself in his effort to land. As Rocky's looping right hand goes whistling by, Moore sticks the champion with a perfectly straight right of his own, its force multiplied by Marciano's forward momentum.

    A Matter of Inches

    As it turns out, Moore was relatively unconcerned with Marciano's notorious right. In the same Sports Illustrated interview quoted above, Moore claimed that Marciano's most fearsome punch was his left hook. If that was indeed the case, then Moore does a spectacular job of defending the one preceding the overhand above, simply by adjusting his right arm a few inches. As Marciano ducks down, Moore keeps his eyes on him and throws up the Lock, preparing for whatever wild punch might come next. Seeing the left hook, and it's a pretty short one by Marciano's standards, Moore changes the shape of his guard, lifting his right elbow to cover his jaw and catching the champ's left right on the point.

    In part one we explored the history of Moore's iconic guard, and traced it back to the era of bare-knuckle boxing, in particular a trainer who was present at various times throughout Archie's career, a man by the name of Hiawatha Grey. If it was Grey who taught Moore the Lock, and I tend to think it was, then this makes perfect sense. Before their fight, Marciano described Moore as being "all gloves, arms, and elbows." A bare-knuckle boxer such as Grey would have made a formidable defense out of those arms and elbows, which present an unwelcome landing site for a fragile human fist. Even with gloves and wraps, Moore was exceptionally skilled at placing his arms in just the right position that his adversaries would connect directly with the point of his elbow, or the blade of his forearm.

    Let's go back to the Durelle fight for a moment.



    After eight rounds, Durelle had stunned Moore multiple times, but simply couldn't put him away. In this GIF, desperate for the right hand that had worked so well earlier, he stands right in front of Moore and tries to connect cleanly. Moore rolls under the first right hand, then raises his elbow, expecting a hook to the head or maybe an uppercut to follow. Instead, Durelle swings for the body, and Moore deftly lowers his elbow a few inches to cover his ribs. Durelle becomes so preoccupied with finding ways around Moore's defense that he forgets that Moore could stop defending and go on the attack at any moment. Moore promptly reminds him with a left hook, timed perfectly as Durelle cocks back his right hand and exposes his jaw.

    Hidden Weapons

    The most underrated aspect of Moore's game was his ability to hide his power punches, not merely disguising his intentions with feints, though he could fake with the best of them, but literally obstructing his punches from view. They say the punch that you don't see is the one that knocks you out, and much of Moore's success as a knockout puncher must be attributed to the unpredictability of his punches, all thanks to his crafty, sneaky style.


    (Click to enlarge)

    We've seen Archie slip inside the jab to load up a hook, but nothing about that was very unique to his system. Now we'll take a look at one of his most iconic attacks, a sneaky left hook thrown from the cover of his guard.



    In this sequence, Moore battles a young Muhammad Ali, then known by the name Cassius Clay. Even at this early stage in his career, Clay possessed a vicious, unpredictable jab. It only took him four rounds to stop Moore in what would turn out to be the Old Mongoose's second-to-last fight, but Moore made a valiant effort until his old body started to let him down. Here, he reacts to a feint, expecting that stinging jab. Finding himself momentarily compromised, he stays low and covers to protect himself. Protected from the immediate threat of a left hook by his upraised right elbow, he decides to capitalize on his position, stepping forward and pulling back his left hand for a hook to the belt line of Clay.

    Not merely a defense, that crossed right arm prevents Clay from seeing the action of Moore's left hand as he loads it up, and he stays in range too long to avoid it. Yesterday I compared this utilization of the Lock to sword and buckler fencing. Here, the comparison is particularly apt. Moore's right arm is his shield. Like a buckler, it is small and doesn't provide much defensive coverage, but it completely blocks Clay's line of sight while Moore positions his sword, the left hand. Clay has no indication of the trajectory or target of Moore's punch until it's already well on its way.

    One more example of a hidden punch, this one from the second round of Moore vs Marciano.



    Moore again capitalizes on Marciano's looping, hair-trigger right hand. Moving his upper body, he draws the punch out of his opponent so that he can counter. As Marciano unloads, Moore again executes his now-you-see-me shoulder roll, slipping just out of the way of the heavy punch. Having already dropped Marciano with a straight right in round one, Moore elects to throw an uppercut this time around. With his body turned to the right, Moore's left shoulder hides the right side of his body from Marciano's view. Watch as he keeps his arms glued to his body until he has fully turned his shoulder, at which point he quickly lowers his hand and pulls back his elbow for the uppercut. Marciano, wise to counters now, tries to bull his way through with a left hook, but Moore's uppercut, which he called a "defensive punch" catches the heavyweight champ leaning and halts his advance.

    Moore had the keys to beat any style in his prime. Despite having to wait till the age of 36 to receive his first title shot, Moore ruled the light heavyweight division undisputed for nearly eight years, never losing his title to a challenger. One of the greatest pound-for-pound fighters of all time, Moore's success was built on the depth and adaptability of his system. The Lock, whatever its provenance, will stand forever as one of the most successful systems in the history of boxing.

    For every question, an answer: that's how you solve a style.


    The End
    Last edited by StrictlySP; 10-25-2014 at 09:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Only breezed through that bro, Its fascinating.
    I dont pretend to know flow charts though,Ill be back to really check it out further, what fun .
    Great stuff Lito.
    Last edited by Andre; 10-29-2014 at 10:54 PM.
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    I can explain it.
    But I cant understand it for you.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    That's awesome. Very interesting comparison to sword and buckler fighting. And a great breakdown of the system. That's one of the best things I've read in awhile.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    I am not convicned there was a system, need to watch the fights though

    Fighters do tend to fight in patterns however
    Learn Mike Tyson style and elements of Peekaboo @ SugarBoxing

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Quote Originally Posted by NVSemin View Post
    I am not convicned there was a system, need to watch the fights though

    Fighters do tend to fight in patterns however
    Why would you doubt it? The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Why would you doubt it?
    That's my job.

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
    I am always looking for a proof.

    I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NVSemin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Why would you doubt it?
    That's my job.

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
    I am always looking for a proof.

    I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
    Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NVSemin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Why would you doubt it?
    That's my job.

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
    I am always looking for a proof.

    I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
    Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.
    If I understand nvsemin correctly than I completely agree with him.The reason being is that it's pretty hard to teach somebody a new style or even a style that they're not comfortable with!fact if somebody stands in a skate board position it's pretty hard to have them adapt to a peekaboo position or any other position for that matter.it appears that we are all born with the natural defense system for example you can train someone to fight off the front or the back foot but in the end they're going to revert to what they feel comfortable doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBUD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NVSemin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Why would you doubt it?
    That's my job.

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
    I am always looking for a proof.

    I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
    Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.
    If I understand nvsemin correctly than I completely agree with him.The reason being is that it's pretty hard to teach somebody a new style or even a style that they're not comfortable with!fact if somebody stands in a skate board position it's pretty hard to have them adapt to a peekaboo position or any other position for that matter.it appears that we are all born with the natural defense system for example you can train someone to fight off the front or the back foot but in the end they're going to revert to what they feel comfortable doing.
    Ok, again, systems and styles are very different things. A system allows multiple styles to exist in it. Not everyone trained in peekaboo fights the same, not everyone trained under the mayweathers fights the same. They have different styles but come from the same system.

    Also good fights don't fight off the front foot OR the back foot, they fight off both as needed.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    One certainty is everyone's system is based on counter punching, movement.
    Pain lasts a only a minute, but the memory will last forever....

    boxingbournemouth - Cornelius Carrs private boxing tuition and personal fitness training

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap View Post
    One certainty is everyone's system is based on counter punching, movement.
    That is exactly it. You do something- a feint, how you move closer, whatever- and because you do it a lot, you have a pretty good idea of what the other guy is going to do, and so then you know what you are going to do, and so on. Good fighters seem to know what the other guy is going to do next because he is making them do it.

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    Default Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

    It appears that all the hype of the Mayweather shoulder roll is done.Andre Ward is the new technique of defense which is nothing more than the lock to block a right punch just simply put your left arm out in a right arc. Andre Ward In Ring Demonstration - YouTube 2:26

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