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Thread: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    All your last post in nonsense. It was obvious Lennox was not in prime condition and that was clear to see. Being heavier was therefore a disadvantage for him.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    All your last post in nonsense. It was obvious Lennox was not in prime condition and that was clear to see. Being heavier was therefore a disadvantage for him.
    Oh yeah, how so?

    Lennox was leaning all over Vitali, (sapping his strength)

    LEnnox was fighting more furiously than he had ever fought whole career.

    5lbs.. FIVE above Rahman 2 weight.

    43 fights worth of experience (41 at 200+ HW) going in.

    Objectively was as quick as he was previous, not noticeably slower at all.

    By Lennox's OWN admission, he was well prepared. He had already been in camp training for Johnson. It's just a natural occurrence that boxers gain weight as they age.

    But "He was puffing hard doe!"

    Vitali was also gassed. That happens when 2 gigantic boxers fight at a pace more befitting a middleweight for several rounds, no matter what kind of condition they are in.

    You can claim it was because it was because he was out of shape and I can do no more to prove otherwise, but I can make my claim and you can do no better likewise!

    But if an in shape Lennox could have beaten Vitali properly, then why did he retire?

    Nothing left to prove? I would say that after that fight, he certainly had one more thing to prove.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    I know this wont be popular but I think Wlad is the best heavyweight of all time. I cant see a fighter I would make favorite to beat him. I dont think Ali is big and strong enough to handle him. I cannot see how a 5'10 Marciano or Tyson could get anywhere near him. The guys Id give the best chance of beating him are Vitali and Lennox.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    All your last post in nonsense. It was obvious Lennox was not in prime condition and that was clear to see. Being heavier was therefore a disadvantage for him.
    Oh yeah, how so?

    Lennox was leaning all over Vitali, (sapping his strength)

    LEnnox was fighting more furiously than he had ever fought whole career.

    5lbs.. FIVE above Rahman 2 weight.

    43 fights worth of experience (41 at 200+ HW) going in.

    Objectively was as quick as he was previous, not noticeably slower at all.

    By Lennox's OWN admission, he was well prepared. He had already been in camp training for Johnson. It's just a natural occurrence that boxers gain weight as they age.

    But "He was puffing hard doe!"

    Vitali was also gassed. That happens when 2 gigantic boxers fight at a pace more befitting a middleweight for several rounds, no matter what kind of condition they are in.

    You can claim it was because it was because he was out of shape and I can do no more to prove otherwise, but I can make my claim and you can do no better likewise!

    But if an in shape Lennox could have beaten Vitali properly, then why did he retire?

    Nothing left to prove? I would say that after that fight, he certainly had one more thing to prove.
    you need to research better before making posts :S... lewis was 10 pounds heavier than the rahman 2 fight.. Although I do think lewis retired because he didn't want anything to do with vitali in a rematch, which is fair enough he had done it all and was rich he earned the right to retire whenever he felt like it.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Haven't we all already had a go on this roundabout?
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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Muhammad Ali had fast hands and was the greatest HW of all time, I don't see what more can be said about him.
    David Lemieux = Future MW Champ and P4P King

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    All your last post in nonsense. It was obvious Lennox was not in prime condition and that was clear to see. Being heavier was therefore a disadvantage for him.
    Oh yeah, how so?

    Lennox was leaning all over Vitali, (sapping his strength)

    LEnnox was fighting more furiously than he had ever fought whole career.

    5lbs.. FIVE above Rahman 2 weight.

    43 fights worth of experience (41 at 200+ HW) going in.

    Objectively was as quick as he was previous, not noticeably slower at all.

    By Lennox's OWN admission, he was well prepared. He had already been in camp training for Johnson. It's just a natural occurrence that boxers gain weight as they age.

    But "He was puffing hard doe!"

    Vitali was also gassed. That happens when 2 gigantic boxers fight at a pace more befitting a middleweight for several rounds, no matter what kind of condition they are in.

    You can claim it was because it was because he was out of shape and I can do no more to prove otherwise, but I can make my claim and you can do no better likewise!

    But if an in shape Lennox could have beaten Vitali properly, then why did he retire?

    Nothing left to prove? I would say that after that fight, he certainly had one more thing to prove.
    He beat Vitali and there was nothing else to prove. Should he have waited until Vitali's eye got better?
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    Muhammad Ali had fast hands and was the greatest HW of all time, I don't see what more can be said about him.
    Tell that to your boyfriend Max Power who discredits him at every turn.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    He beat Vitali and there was nothing else to prove. Should he have waited until Vitali's eye got better?
    Commentary before the Johnson fight.. Interviewed by Lampley...

    Lennox Lewis "I don't want to get in the ring with Vitali again until I can be certain about his eye"

    Vitali Klitschko "The doctors cleared my eye weeks ago, Lewis is ducking me now"
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTrae View Post

    :
    OF course the Klitschko's have fought bums, as does every boxer. The thing with Klitschko is that no other boxer has fought more quality opponents than Wladimir Klitschko at real HW! In fact even considering against previous eras (including sub200 opponents, Wladimir fares among the best in this case.)
    Boxers fighting more quality opponents than the Klitschko is your opinion, if not hold a poll here and I will bow to the winner- Most here believe they are fighting in the weakest era- so if most think this way.. then it becomes a consensus which beats out one's personal opinion.

    I know many ppl CALL them bums, but they are really past present and future champs, unbeaten contenders, ultra slick athletes or giant towering boxers, all with great records and very hard punches.

    Your quip regarding Wladimir getting knocked around left right and centre prior to the system Steward taught him is totally false! He had only been down a few times in his career and lost 2ce by stoppage. Only 1 of those times being relevant for Stewards system to HOLD when in trouble. Previous to that he knocked out nearly every single opponent except the one he gassed against which he beat the shit out of anyway!
    So if my claim that Steward brought his game up, tightened his defense is false- then who knocked Klitcho down...after Manny took over? Was he knocked down & knocked out after Steward came in more than before he took over?

    Of course Wladimir could dominate all the 80's boxers, knock practically every one of them out and win nearly every round. LOOK at him! Mike Tyson is the only serious question mark here. And these days that's a less than even chance for old Mike. And this is what you called facts? Sounds like an opinion, once again hold a poll here and I will acknowledge the consensus, not an individual's opinion.

    Your comment regarding injuries today is very relevant and I agree totally. If you notice I have always championed the idea that fat is not detrimental to HW boxing which is why there ARE successful fat boxers in the first place. I fail to see how more injuries in any way worsens boxers chances though, if it was bad they wouldn't do it!

    injuries prevent athletes from competing, this is why yesteryears fighters could wage 100 fights minimum- most didnt get brain damage like Ali. Be it Archie Moore, Suicidal Hank to Walker Smith to JCC who fought over 100 times also and when he came to the Boxing Hall of fame in 2012, his speech seemed fine. Now I dont speak spanish, but I know slurred speech, so theese guys bare me witness.

    Fighting every month like past times was FAR more deleterious to health and ability than bloody camps are! I neither agrree nor disagree, but wouldnt mine you naming some fighter to prove this point like I just named to prove mines, cool?


    Then you make comment analogous that past boxers were "mentally tougher", absolute rot that every old codger concocts. Absolute rot? remember those words when you get old and start talking to the 2020 generation about how great Witali and Wlad was. Reap what you so. Guys today like Victor Ortiz, quit. Older Klitschko quit against Byrd- those who fight through pain today are more rare than yesteryear. Tough guys are in all era, just not as deep as the past- be it the punk kid in the streets who uses a gun over fists or the athletes who get sidelined by an injury that in the past, most had to play-fight through. You probably have no clue of this because you haven't seen enough eras go by to make the legit claim. I dont call your opininions rot like you call mines...but maybe that is what your era does

    Boxers are boxers, they ALL have that heart and warrior spirit else they wouldn't be pro boxers. Boxers today are SMARTER if that's what you mean! Sure you can mention VK quitting vs Byrd but you THEN have to look on his performance with half his face off vs Lennox too!

    We will have to agree to disagree. Boxers today IMO fight more for the purse, the PPV, the fame. the amount of fights not made today is way more than in the past. Ali haggled money with whom? Marciano, Larry Holmes? Today we dont see the best fight the best because we are in an era of PPV, fighters becoming their own promoters. 8 to 11 divisions up to how many today? How many belts exist? So today one can be a champ simply with a made up alphabet belt and have no need to unify. Fighters today win one belt, then move up without unification. Few do that like today's JMM. He damn near unified the whole LW division chasing Pac up to WW, but that doesnt represent the era, IMI it represents JMM as an individual- tough as nails! And as far as VK getting busted up against Lewis: agreed. But again...IMO, you are using one individual fight to speak for the whole era?

    Please indicate to me boxers like Byrd etc who, undersized fight high quality giant boxers regularly? Only Joe Louis ever beat mention worthy giants in the past!
    Okay check this out:
    Billy Conn LHW moving up to fight HW Joe Louis and it wasnt called catchweight fights like today's champs do like Floyd & Pacquiao catchweighting fights all the way to the Hall of fame.

    Hank Armstrong held the FW, LW & WW title at the same time, so now let me give it back to you; name a fighter today that fights FW's & WW's? Today when a FW loses, so many of us are quick to point out...oh well he was fighting outside his best weight. But back in the day, a loss was a loss. Not a loss requires a caveat: He was too small. He wasnt a real WW, he was a blown up WW.


    Please indicate to me a boxer with the heart of Lamon Brewster for example who came forward in 2 fights to receive some of the most brutal thrashings (even in the fight he won) against WKlitshcko, ever dished out in a HW boxing match all time?

    You're kidding right? There is a reason when fighters who go through fire are called [Throw back fighters], Jack Dempsy was considered too small to fight 6'6 Jess Willard odds I quote:

    "In The 12 Greatest Rounds of Boxing pages 17-18, “The Fight Doctor”, Ferdie Pacheco, writes, “The damage was indeed severe. In the first round Willard’s zygomatic arch (cheekbone) was shattered in 12 places. In the same round the champion sustained a broken nose, a jaw that was broken in 13 places, and 8 avulsed teeth. In addition to facial fractures he suffered 2 fractured ribs.”

    Likewise Dan Daniel wrote, Aug 1979 Ring Magazine, "Blood was flowing from Willard's mouth. Two front teeth had found their way to the canvas. His right eye had begun to close and the right side of his face was swelling abnormally. He looked as if he had been struck with a blackjack."




    Besides, no amount of heart could allow most of those boxers to survive. It would simply get them knocked out even quicker. Once again I have no problem with this stated as an opinion, but if it is fact, shouldn't there be more here or abound who support this view? IMO this is exactly: an opinion.

    It's evident today in how much boxing has changed at HW. Sure it is, but IMO I hold on to my first thread: I think the 1990's produced the best HW's plural. Now does that mean they all could beat VK & WK? I dunno. But two guys dont make this era the best. Its two ...2..

    Past fights were a back and forth slugfest in which bravado was key. True for the majority of fighters but IMO not all Example: Benny Leonard was once considered to be such a consumate boxer that he was said to have won a round without throwing a punch.
    Ray Robinson's speed and finesse earned him the nickname 'sugar'.
    Overall I agree that yesteryear's fighters were like the same for any sport. They all develop over time. But that doesnt mean the previous eras should be discounted as neanderthalls.
    I implore you: Watch Niccolino Loche who boxed from 1964-1976, he shoulder rolled, dipped feinted did shit that Pernell & Floyd does in terms of defense- pure finesse, showboating & shoeshining. Watch some old Roberto Duran, he was a bull, but also a consumate boxer at LW.

    Today we see tentative and carefully executed gameplay instead. There's a reason for that. In the past the punches were bareable. Even George Foreman took multiple shots aand KD's to put away over matched opponents. Now days everybody knows it only takes a single punch for a cold canvas KO.
    I agree.

    To see what I mean watch the cautious styles here...
    I see and ready everything you mean. But in the end it comes across as opinion which you seem to think are facts. Hold a poll here on some of your said facts and I will acknowledge it, until then its been cool..overall to debate you & others on which era had the best HW's...BTW I still say 90's
    Last edited by SlimTrae; 12-16-2014 at 05:30 AM.

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Slim there's a real lot there to digest in 1 post but basically, holding a poll does nothing.

    If 99 ppl out of 100 call red blue, even though it's clearly red on a detector, then that means that 99 ppl are colour blind, not that 99 ppl are right! Politics doesn't determine truth, facts determine proof.

    Most of my opinions are supported by facts. Where not I state usually it's my opinion.

    For instance, I KNOW WK has faced the most quality real HW's of any boxer. Because he has faced the most 200+ opponents for a start.

    Of these, he has faced more non-bummy opponents (those that have not lost a significant ratio of their fights, they have BETTER records than the opponents of any other boxer in total.

    And these opponents achieved their records by competing with heavier and higher quality boxers in turn. In other words the WORTHINESS of the wins of these opponents (the opponents opponents of Wladimir) was better as well!

    Your posts started off strong but got progressively worse as they continued.

    One of the last decent laughs was about modern guys fighting for the purse these days and without heart. LEt me tell you that nobody becomes a professional boxer by necessity today, they really WANT to be there! This is a BLOOD SPORT! A pro boxer is an elite fighting machine, nothing less and they are there to WIN!

    Past times boxers were expected to be "entertainers" as well, winning was LESS important to them (IN MY OPINION, which makes intuitive sense). Because it was THOSE guys fighting more for the purse than any other because they needed the cash to bloody EAT!

    When you mentioned bum Billy Conn vs Joe Louis as some sort of proof, it became unreadable.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    Muhammad Ali had fast hands and was the greatest HW of all time, I don't see what more can be said about him.
    Well... I just learned that because he had no reflexes he wanted to get hit to wear down his opponents. Who knew? Maybe that where Mayorga got his inspiration for his fight with mosley?

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by fan johnny View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanflicker View Post
    Muhammad Ali had fast hands and was the greatest HW of all time, I don't see what more can be said about him.
    Well... I just learned that because he had no reflexes he wanted to get hit to wear down his opponents. Who knew? Maybe that where Mayorga got his inspiration for his fight with mosley?
    There's no question about it...

    Even his daughter claimed so about her own father "He would let his opponents beat on him in order for them to wear themselves out"

    And a trainer during sparring "Ali, why you keep getting hit?" Ali.. "I want to get accustomed to the blows".

    It was exactly this strategy he employed vs Foreman and others.

    I will submit a comprehensive list if you like stretching back throughout career and you can inform me where my analysis has gone haywire.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    The manufactured career of Clay/Ali is such that Deontay Wilder's doesn't look all that bad by comparison, considering how he dealt with such doubtful opposition.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    The manufactured career of Clay/Ali is such that Deontay Wilder's doesn't look all that bad by comparison, considering how he dealt with such doubtful opposition.
    Now I know you are trolling.

    You are a waste of time.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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