The "Can We Keep it Civil?" Thread

[TitoFan]

This is a last ditch attempt at civil conversation between those in endless wars.

None of us is beyond some criticism, right? So can we dispense with the boulder-on-shoulder defensiveness and trying to see who can get the best quip in? Are we capable of having an honest-to-goodness conversation, even if we don't agree on many things?

Honestly... I feel none of this nonsense would last if we were all of a sudden face to face. Not because we'd kill each other, but because when face to face with someone, usually you make an attempt at getting along. I mean, we're all above 15 here, right?

So this is an open invitation for anyone to come in here and express yourselves, even if it's criticism. It'll be well accepted if it's constructively expressed.

How about it? Any takers?

First if I may..... maybe a rule or two. If you feel like you need to offend and/or insult somebody, please take it outside (another thread). We got plenty of those to go around.

[TitoFan]

Hey look.... I'll start.

One of the hot ticket items I disagree with Lyle on is the shooting spree problem. Lyle feels (if I may, Lyle) that any attempt to resolve the issue should not include limitations on guns. Am I right?

To me, all aspects should be on the table. But we can certainly agree to disagree, right?

With Miles I disagree on the race IQ business, as I think it's oversimplifying things to assign IQ's to races. Miles (if I may) does not share that opinion and it's his right to do so. I however, will continue to argue with him about whenever the topic comes up.

On the LGBTQ issue, I feel my opinions are being misrepresented. This is a topic where I would appreciate a one on one discussion, rather than a shark feeding frenzy. I'll be happy to discuss my opinions with anyone on the subject.

I have kids, but I certainly respect the opinions of those who do not have them. Having kids is a choice, and should not disqualify you from having an opinion having to do with kids' education or upbringing.


There's more.... but I'll yield the floor.

[walrus]

Sure tits can I still call you tits though

[TitoFan]

Sure tits can I still call you tits though

You can still call me tits bro. I've been called much worse.

[Gandalf]

I think there is a very solid observation if the IQ differences are all occurring in the same nation as in the US. It seems pretty cut and dry in terms of the research into race and IQ. There are of course exceptional people in any group and there are unexceptional people in any group, but it just means that as a whole the intelligence levels are significantly different. Thus it is that the East Asians in America perform the best in terms of family structure, academic performance, and overall economic outcomes. There are the Ashkenazi Jews too of course who fly off the radar when it comes to IQ. In saying that of course you treat everyone as an individual and so one can either perform well on an intelligence test or they can't. The controversy is really about nature versus nurture rather than if there are differences. It is undeniable unless we are going to burn the plethora of research data compiled over decades and delete it from the Internet.

I get why it is sticky, but I just think people should be treated as individuals thus no affirmative action and reduced welfare incentives and let the genuinely talented rise. By looking at IQ we learn about behavior too thus we can see who is more likely to be a single Mum or a criminal and so on. It is not absolute by any stretch, but by just preaching racism and social injustice is not really the full picture. The left wants to eliminate IQ debate as it means accepting that we simply are not all the same from an intelligence basis. However, we are of course all people and should aspire to better performance.

I will never be Einstein, but I will continue to strive to know and learn more. Someone with a lower IQ should perhaps strive to avoid a life of crime or potentially hurt a child by not choosing a partner well. We can all raise our level in some way. I certainly do not feel inferior or oppressed because the average white has an IQ of 100 compared to an average East Asian IQ of 106. I am competitive and strive and we all should. Marrying East Asians is the solution. Oh, I jest heartily.

You look around you and see successful and brilliant black, white, hispanic, and Asian people. It is just that a higher proportion of some of those groups have less successful outcomes than others which is best predicted by intelligence. You will never find a surgeon of 90 operating on you, but there are plenty of people with an IQ of 90 out there and they might be jolly nice too.

[Gandalf]

To be honest though, I am not looking to argue or debate that topic as I think it has been done a fair bit already, but I think that was a post where I was reasonable, not abusive, and just argued my point as reasonably as I could showing that it can be done. It only descends when someone marches in with a 100 word scrawl starting with 'You are such a racist, elitist scumbag cunt I do not even know where to begin.......'. I sometimes find it difficult to be reasonable in return.

[TitoFan]

I studied with many types of people. But I'll mention two types and you can make what you will out of that.

Joe (for the sake of the anecdote) had to study very hard. Learning didn't come easy to him. So basically he worked his butt off. He was never in the top 5 percent as far as GPA, but he did well enough. He graduated purely out of sheer work ethic. He knew he had to study harder than most, and he did. Today he's a successful professional, and does very well in his field.

Jack (another made up name) was the exact opposite. He could read something once and it stuck to him. But he was a bit lazy. He leaned on his amazing learning activity to get by. Didn't work hard at all... but still did well enough to graduate. Today he's doing ok... but not as well as Joe. As a professional, I'd recommend Joe over Jack any day of the week.

Now.... if given an IQ test, it's obvious Jack would score higher than Joe. But does that matter?

This is why I don't put the weight on IQ that you apparently do. Not saying it's not important. But it's not the magic predictor of success that sometimes you seem to say it is.

[TitoFan]

To be honest though, I am not looking to argue or debate that topic as I think it has been done a fair bit already, but I think that was a post where I was reasonable, not abusive, and just argued my point as reasonably as I could showing that it can be done. It only descends when someone marches in with a 100 word scrawl starting with 'You are such a racist, elitist scumbag cunt I do not even know where to begin.......'. I sometimes find it difficult to be reasonable in return.

Yes... but this is not one of those threads. For the sake of levity, we'll call it a Safe Space..... LOL.

[TitoFan]

I know there's a time difference, so we're not all up at the same time. But I'll leave this invitation out there.

Let's see if we're capable of civil conversation.

Give us your grievances, but please do so in a civil fashion. I think we can do that.

[Gandalf]

I studied with many types of people. But I'll mention two types and you can make what you will out of that.

Joe (for the sake of the anecdote) had to study very hard. Learning didn't come easy to him. So basically he worked his butt off. He was never in the top 5 percent as far as GPA, but he did well enough. He graduated purely out of sheer work ethic. He knew he had to study harder than most, and he did. Today he's a successful professional, and does very well in his field.

Jack (another made up name) was the exact opposite. He could read something once and it stuck to him. But he was a bit lazy. He leaned on his amazing learning activity to get by. Didn't work hard at all... but still did well enough to graduate. Today he's doing ok... but not as well as Joe. As a professional, I'd recommend Joe over Jack any day of the week.

Now.... if given an IQ test, it's obvious Jack would score higher than Joe. But does that matter?

This is why I don't put the weight on IQ that you apparently do. Not saying it's not important. But it's not the magic predictor of success that sometimes you seem to say it is.

I think what you are putting forwards there is someone who had it by nature and another by nurture and both could, let's say, at 20 do pretty well in an IQ test, but Jack just does it better. I would agree with you. Jack seems more your Oscar Wilde type where everything comes pretty easily, but then Joe is more your Orwell. Not as spectacular, but you know he is churning out the work, working at his craft and he is very solid regardless. Not dazzling the crowds, but a good worker.

Your example is an interesting one and I guess it would also depend on which fields they were to go in. The average CEO of a top firm will put in 70-80 hours a week and I think in a situation like that Jack would come unstuck such as when Wilde became an editor which did not require even a third of that and would show up more sporadically until eventually people realized he just wasn't up the minimal requirements at all. Joe, if the ability to process language is there even if not with a book in each hand and he is willing to dedicate himself, then he would likely be the better editor. I see that in the writing of Orwell. I don't think his work is dazzling in the way of a Wilde or as complex as in Dickens, but it is fantastic in a more simple way and is his own voice.

Ideally you want a smart person who is also very dedicated, but it would depend on the line of work. IQ is a predictor of success though and though there are obvious exceptions, you are typically going to find the Professor of Mathematics has a higher IQ than let's say the average police officer. Sure the police officer might be very good at what he does, but he will typically be of pretty average intelligence while the Professor will have an IQ perhaps even 150 and up. The typical surgeon will be supremely educated and need to be very responsible, by contrast the average shop worker will slyly send a text and is typically a league below, but maybe average intelligence. They have the tools to do what needs to be done. That is a huge differential though,

One shouldn't generalize too much and there will always be exceptions to the patterns. There will on occasion be a PhD taxi driver. Or a Starbucks server with a Rainman brain or what have you, but on the whole IQ will predict success. It is why prison populations do have IQ levels below the norm and why unmarried mothers do have an IQ about 10 points below that of married mothers. Of course there are very smart single Mothers but as a whole IQ does influence behavior.

See, not a single use of the word cunt. Oops, I did it. Right, I haven't even had breakfast yet and if I continue like this really will be like Joe.

[Gandalf]

A final very quick observation is that though some argue strongly for nature, I actually do think people can be nurtured to improve intelligence and even if not intelligence, certainly improve their moral awareness thus making society a better place. That's where I have agreed that 90% of the UK primary education is solid. There is nothing wrong with that. However, some, and typically the less capable, will fall through the cracks and that is life.

[walrus]

This thread needs a bump. Tits is right, a little civility goes a long way

[TitoFan]

This thread needs a bump. Tits is right, a little civility goes a long way

Notice the absence of a certain someone from the thread.

A thread that a dozen posts in has nary a mean word in it.

Like wearing a garlic necklace to keep Dracula away.



In actuality, it's kind of a neat psychological experiment.

[Gandalf]

Isn't 'Civil War' the strangest expression? What is civil about people of the same country killing one another?

[Denilson-The-Comeback]

I think there is a very solid observation if the IQ differences are all occurring in the same nation as in the US. It seems pretty cut and dry in terms of the research into race and IQ. There are of course exceptional people in any group and there are unexceptional people in any group, but it just means that as a whole the intelligence levels are significantly different. Thus it is that the East Asians in America perform the best in terms of family structure, academic performance, and overall economic outcomes. There are the Ashkenazi Jews too of course who fly off the radar when it comes to IQ. In saying that of course you treat everyone as an individual and so one can either perform well on an intelligence test or they can't. The controversy is really about nature versus nurture rather than if there are differences. It is undeniable unless we are going to burn the plethora of research data compiled over decades and delete it from the Internet.

I get why it is sticky, but I just think people should be treated as individuals thus no affirmative action and reduced welfare incentives and let the genuinely talented rise. By looking at IQ we learn about behavior too thus we can see who is more likely to be a single Mum or a criminal and so on. It is not absolute by any stretch, but by just preaching racism and social injustice is not really the full picture. The left wants to eliminate IQ debate as it means accepting that we simply are not all the same from an intelligence basis. However, we are of course all people and should aspire to better performance.

Here's a question I've asked many times from you guys who are always running around trying to prove how stupid black people are.

What do you do with a race of black people who you claim are dumb (ON average) ?

I don't care what you think of black intelligence because frankly call me intellectually inferor all day

I don't give a sh*t about that

You are saying (On average) your smarter than me because your white and I'm black

YES YOU ARE

Happy now ?

Now what ?

And that's were guys like you wimp out when it's comes to the doing part. And that's thing about white supremacy "Tell black people what they are but never say what we are gonna do"

And guess what ?

If whites turned around and said "We are gonna finally stop telling black ppl what they are and we are gonna tell them what we are gonna do. Tune in at 9"

I'd be like



And if they turned around and said "We are gonna kill every black person on the planet or die trying"

Once again I'd be like



And I'd go down fighting

Stop talking. Stop trying to prove points. We don't need points. Either do justice or let's just get it on for the last time and for the final time

Period.