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Thread: My problem with moving through weight classes

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  1. #1
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    Default My problem with moving through weight classes

    We hav recently talked about this topic and with the whole Canelo and Kovalev fight looking semi likely to happen, I want to tell everyone about the scam of moving through weight classes.

    Back when we started the Marquis of Queensburry rules, fighters would fight all over the place. It didn’t matter the weight. Sure there were weight classes, but it wasn’t uncommon to see a huge disparity in weight. We eventually got out of that. You still had guys throughout the next handful of decades that still fought bigger fighters. They jumped around a lot. They basically just fought whoever they could.

    Pacquiao seemed to really revolutionize the idea of moving through weights to achieve greatness. Obviously I understand that he isn’t the first one to do it, but he seemed to be the one to perfect it. It became a measure of greatness that he started out so little and ended up beating guys way bigger than his original weight class. Since then, it seems like everybody is trying to do the same thing and it’s getting annoying.

    Here is my issue. Look at Pacquiao. He went up to just dominate bigger guys like Hatton, Cotto, Margarito, etc. These guys were legit fighters. They weren’t push overs. At the height of his dominance, he fought JMM for a third time. Everybody (including myself), thought that Pacquiao was just too good at this point. He had proven to transcend his former self. He was basically a boxing god. However, JMM proved that Pacquiao wasn’t any better than before. We all saw that JMM won that fight (despite what the judges say). He did what he did in their previous fights but only better. JMM proved that beating bigger fighters doesn’t mean that you are better. I think that Pacquiao gained a huge advantage with bigger fighters because he kept his speed and power unlike most fighters who move up in weight (I won’t get into the whole PED thing).

    As a fighter moves quickly through weight classes, they miss out on a lot of the tough fights. They miss out on fights that are just bad match ups. They hand pick which title holder is the easiest for them to beat and factor in the name recognition.

    This brings me to Canelo fighting Kovalev. There is a reason that Canelo and his team want Kovalev. There are other legit middleweights that potentially give him a lot of trouble. Same with super middleweight title holders. So why jump two weight classes to fight Kovalev specifically? Why not fight the other buzzsaws at light heavyweight? Other than GGG (who he already fought twice and was on the fortunate side of the decisions both fights), who is the biggest name in boxing between middleweight and light heavyweight? You guessed it! Kovalev. Kovalev potentially is also the easiest stylistically to fight. He is old, hates body shots, and is known to not train great and drinks a lot. It’s also a high risk low reward fight. If he loses, it’s easy to just use the size excuse.

    Who did Canelo have the hardest time with? Obviously Mayweather who was small. Smaller than most people he fought. Sure he is older and better now but I think it still proves that size isn’t always the main factor. Sometimes size can be a detriment.

    Back from over a hundred years ago, small fighters were beating big fighters. It wasn’t unheard of. Jimmy Wilde was known to knockout guys way bigger than him. Mickey Walker was known as the giant killer. Henry Armstrong held three titles in three weight classes at once (probably should have been four).

    I am just such a huge advocate for cleaning out divisions. I hate jumping around in weights because I consider it cherry picking. There are few exceptions like when you are moving up to fight a prime p4p fighter. Other than that, there is a reason you aren’t just cleaning out your division. It’s much more impressive because you show that you can beat all styles and you can’t just pick and choose between four weight classes who has the best stylistic match up and name recognition ratio.

    Sorry, really long post but I think that this myth of moving up in weight has ruined parts of boxing.

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Are you insinuating that Rocky Fielding was cherry-picked?

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    What irks me about it is guys that moved up used to prove they were the best guy in some division before moving up. Maybe once they started moving up they continued without cleaning out subsequent divisions but they still had that 1 to point back to.

    Crawford, Usyk, these guys have every right to move as Mayweather, Holyfield and Mosley did previously. But almost all now move without ever really doing much in that first division. Even PAC, with many lineal titles, which division did he prove he was the best in? Surely fighting in so many he proved he was best in 1?

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    At times it feels like the trinkets have delegitimized the competition of sport. This whole bouncing around for the sake of 'making history' solely based on low hanging fruit..pre positioning.. rather than the biggest baddest dog on the yard. Many have stiff competition in the division they leave and when they go up more stiff competition to work around. Worse they treat it like a simple pit stop and are allowed to retain top ranks in even two divisions. A Canelo has 2,3 fellow wba trinket holders at 168..Callum Smith is more than worthy..and hasn't faced a single contender at 175 but is allowed to waltz into a wbo opportunity. They do this a lot. It's an absurd game. Checkers not chess.

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Who allows all this? The fans. Maybe a slow and subtle shift toward the type of fan who likes shiny objects and has a short attention span. If fans were to shun these crass cherry-pickers, maybe they'd stay in one place longer and prove their mettle against all worthy contenders in their own divisions instead of jumping around and targeting the Rocky Fieldings of the world.

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Canelo is only doing what the biggest stars have done since multi titles became the norm (Leonard and Hearns jumped up and down like yo-yos collecting trinkets).

    The truth is, Kovalev-Canelo is a much, much bigger seller than anyone else Canelo can face at middle/super middle (barring GGG). DAZN didn't give him a billion quid to fight whoever he wants, they want marquee names.

    Fans can hate Canelo all they like, however, he fought the two best middleweights and now the best/2nd best lightheavy. If Kovalev is such a cherry pick old drunk what does that say about the light-heavy division?
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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    I know Canelo is avoiding decent middleweights and Callum Smith by taking on Kovolev but it is still an intriguing fight which will be very good to watch.

    There will be excuses whoever loses but I think Canelo is intending to win and is not a bridge too far.

    This fight is going to be good.

    I would personally prefer Canelo to fight GGG and Callum Smith but do not want to see Andrade or BJS.

    Canelo is not the best super middleweight for beating Fielding (who Smith destroyed in a round) and I would not see him being the best light heavyweight for beating Kov.

    It is still a good fight.
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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    If Charlo or Andrade or Smith or Saunders fought Kovalev would it be a "cherry pick?" Hmmmm...?
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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Before Ward, Kovalev was a destruction machine, feared by all.

    After two losses to Ward and an embarrassing TKO loss to Alvarez, now he's clearly on the downside of his career and a guy who runs out of gas and doesn't like it to the body.

    Would Canelo have ventured to fight the previous Kovalev? Hmmmmmm?

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    My issue with the Kov fight is just the timing. They know it is not long enough for a proper Kov camp and he needs recovery time after 2 horrible rounds. An older fighter needs a lityle time abd they have given him NONE. Why not make it December 2nd? Always something. The fight is 7 weeks away.
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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Apologies for the typing....on a spying device.
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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Canelo is only doing what the biggest stars have done since multi titles became the norm (Leonard and Hearns jumped up and down like yo-yos collecting trinkets).

    The truth is, Kovalev-Canelo is a much, much bigger seller than anyone else Canelo can face at middle/super middle (barring GGG). DAZN didn't give him a billion quid to fight whoever he wants, they want marquee names.

    Fans can hate Canelo all they like, however, he fought the two best middleweights and now the best/2nd best lightheavy. If Kovalev is such a cherry pick old drunk what does that say about the light-heavy division?
    Which is exactly my point. They are making the fight because he is a big name AND they see that stylistically they could beat him. Worse comes to worst, he loses and just says that Kovalev was too big and he gets no backlash.

    The other three title holders at that weight (Bivol, Gvozdyk, and Beterbiev) would all easily beat Canelo. Kovalev a few years ago would too. I think that stylistically Andrade, Saunders, and Smith are all tougher opponents.

    It’s a cherry pick because he is specifically picking someone he knows he has a decent chance to beat with enough name recognition to bring more star power. It’s clear as day.

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    If Charlo or Andrade or Smith or Saunders fought Kovalev would it be a "cherry pick?" Hmmmm...?
    Depending the situation. I wouldn’t like any of them going up to fight Kovalev because they all have good fights at their own weights. Canelo basically has his pick to fight whoever he wants. If someone like Charlo was demanding fights and nobody would fight him, then I guess going up to fight Kovalev would make some sense.

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    Default Re: My problem with moving through weight classes

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpuncher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Canelo is only doing what the biggest stars have done since multi titles became the norm (Leonard and Hearns jumped up and down like yo-yos collecting trinkets).

    The truth is, Kovalev-Canelo is a much, much bigger seller than anyone else Canelo can face at middle/super middle (barring GGG). DAZN didn't give him a billion quid to fight whoever he wants, they want marquee names.

    Fans can hate Canelo all they like, however, he fought the two best middleweights and now the best/2nd best lightheavy. If Kovalev is such a cherry pick old drunk what does that say about the light-heavy division?
    Which is exactly my point. They are making the fight because he is a big name AND they see that stylistically they could beat him. Worse comes to worst, he loses and just says that Kovalev was too big and he gets no backlash.

    The other three title holders at that weight (Bivol, Gvozdyk, and Beterbiev) would all easily beat Canelo. Kovalev a few years ago would too. I think that stylistically Andrade, Saunders, and Smith are all tougher opponents.

    It’s a cherry pick because he is specifically picking someone he knows he has a decent chance to beat with enough name recognition to bring more star power. It’s clear as day.
    You are correct Bivol, Gvozdyk, and Beterbiev would be tougher fights as would Callum Smith. But I do not think Canelo is fighting because it will give him an excuse should he lose. He has every intention of winning. His name would diminish should he lose.
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