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Thread: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    None of the fighters you mentioned were at the level of the 3 I mentioned. None of the fighters you mentioned are in anyone's top 10 of the best heavyweights. Some of the opposition was so bad, Joe had to fight them twice.

    No crime having trouble against Joe Frazier he was a great heavyweight champion. Being constantly knocked down as a champion by some poor challengers is.

    I am not trying to persuade you to change your mind.
    How do you define that "level"? It's a bit ambiguous. Sonny Liston isn't a top 10 heavyweight, sorry. I'm not 100% certain Joe Frazier is top 10, he's around there, but golly you're talking quality of opponents one second then you're touting a guy who beat Buster Mathis for a vacant title, Foster, Ali, and who else? Jerry Quarry? Beating a great fighter once doesn't make you a great fighter it doesn't even mean you fought a great fight, sometimes the champ sucks on a specific night.

    Getting knocked down doesn't mean much unless you STAY down. I guess this sort of thing really hampers the reputation of Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson among others.

    It kind of seems like you're taking what I've posted personally.



    Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time FACT.
    I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

    The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

    Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

    Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

    Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

    Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

    The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

    Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

    Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

    Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

    Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.
    Again Joe Louis could only fight the fighters in his era and AGAIN you're saying "Yeah but those guys weren't as good as these guys from the 1960's and 70's".....well damn I guess Joe needed a time machine to impress you.

    Frazier's defenses...my word: Manuel Ramos, Oscar Bonavena, Dave Zyglewicz, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, Ali, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander.

    THE Terry Daniels? THE Ron Stander?

    The result of the Galento fight was? the result of the Conn fight was? A win is a win is a win is a win...sometimes you win ugly, not like Ali ever did that


    I guess I had better change my opinion so that your feathers aren't ruffled
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    That one detraction that I can make against Ali is that he couldn't seem to like mix it up toe to toe, slugging for slugging, like the Brown Bomber use it to do. Ali would like to always grab HARD around the neck when the heat was on!

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    The debate between Ali and Joe Louis is pretty damn near unwinnable, as they belonged to two totally different eras (no overlapping) so there aren't even any common opponents to discuss.

    You guys are doing a pretty good job at debating it, though.

    When we're arguing for "our guy", we always denigrate the other guy's opponents. For instance, I rate Sonny Liston highly. He was a powerful, feared fighter in his time... and only had one early defeat when he first faced Ali. He was heavily favored... and the fact Ali won counts for something right there. History repeated itself years later against George Foreman. Strong, powerful, feared, and undefeated when he faced Ali. Heavily favored, too. Ali's list of opponents over time was impressive. None of those easy, soft touches to pad his record like we've seen from other subsequent champions, even in other weight divisions. He lost the prime years of his boxing career, then came back, reinvented himself, and went on to add more boxing glory to his career. He always found a way to win. He avenged losses to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and Leon Spinks. Ali also fought around the globe, something I admire in a fighter.

    Louis, on the other hand, has his own long, glorious career. His only loss in the prime of his career was to Max Schmeling, a loss he later avenged in spectacular fashion. He fought often, was consistent as clockwork, and faced his own formidable lineup of challengers including the feared Max Baer. I feel he was ahead of his time, having watched film of him and finding him to be surprisingly fluid as compared to most of the fighters at that time. During one particular stretch he was incredibly busy, defending his title 13 times in about 2 and a half years. With today's fighters we're lucky if they fight twice a year. His opponents during that stretch were highly rated (top 10), and Louis dispatched them with ease.

    So basically it all boils down to personal opinion.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

    The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

    Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

    Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

    Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

    Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.
    Again Joe Louis could only fight the fighters in his era and AGAIN you're saying "Yeah but those guys weren't as good as these guys from the 1960's and 70's".....well damn I guess Joe needed a time machine to impress you.

    Frazier's defenses...my word: Manuel Ramos, Oscar Bonavena, Dave Zyglewicz, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, Ali, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander.

    THE Terry Daniels? THE Ron Stander?

    The result of the Galento fight was? the result of the Conn fight was? A win is a win is a win is a win...sometimes you win ugly, not like Ali ever did that


    I guess I had better change my opinion so that your feathers aren't ruffled
    I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

    Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

    I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

    Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

    Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

    The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

    There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

    Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

    The result of the Henry Cooper was?

    My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    When I pictured great brown bomber verses Smoking Joe, 1971 prime, action Frasier would have been too much for him. Lookout Smoking took ALL that Ali HAD, 15 rounds at a fastest pace anybody ever saw in boxing history. That 1971 Frazier would likely knockout brown bomber with one of his incredible left hooks!

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    ​Ali was indeed the GREATEST heavyweight who ever lived ...... but Joe Louis was the BEST
    If God wanted us to be vegetarians, why are animals made of meat ?

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
    ​Ali was indeed the GREATEST heavyweight who ever lived ...... but Joe Louis was the BEST
    What does that even mean in the context of these posts?
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

    Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

    I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

    Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

    Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

    The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

    There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

    Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

    The result of the Henry Cooper was?

    My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.
    Why were the fighters considered better? Could be they didn't have The Great Depression or WW2 to steal talented men away from the ring Could be that post WW2 America allowed for it to be easier to be a Prize Fighter as a full time job. Joe Louis went 25 in a row with the belt and Ali didn't...and therefore the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time is Joe Louis....read again...The Greatest Heavyweight CHAMPION of All-Time is Joe Louis. Was Ali more skilled? Was Lennox more skilled? Was Tyson more skilled? Was anyone else more skilled? Doesn't fucking matter 25 in a row, 1,2...twenty fucking five in a row, set 'em up knock 'em down 1-25....how difficult is that to understand?

    Ali clouda shoulda woulda...you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first JOE LOUIS DID IT....Ali could have.... Joe Louis DID


    Well Joe never fought the likes of Karl Mildenberger or Brian London or Zora Folley or Richard Dunn or Joe Bunger....so don't play like Ali only fought all-time greats either.


    Oh I'm sorry Joe didn't need his glove cut to save him vs Galento or Conn.


    I can say Joe Louis is the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time and back it up and I have....25
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    They both had their share of sub-par opponents.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Both Ali and Louis fought some great competition. It’s hard to beat Ali’s resume though. He literally fought 4 top 10 HWs of all time (Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes). He beat three of them. Holmes was at the end of his career so it wasn’t much of a contest. He also fought some other really solid opponents.

    Louis proved to be able to completely clean out his division. He dominated the division for years which is tough. And again, he wasn’t fighting push overs. He fought some real tough guys.

    Ali and Louis are solidly #1 and #2 HWs. Other people can change places, but they are set. I think that Ali was better.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Kabong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

    Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

    I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

    Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

    Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

    The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

    There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

    Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

    The result of the Henry Cooper was?

    My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.
    Why were the fighters considered better? Could be they didn't have The Great Depression or WW2 to steal talented men away from the ring Could be that post WW2 America allowed for it to be easier to be a Prize Fighter as a full time job. Joe Louis went 25 in a row with the belt and Ali didn't...and therefore the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time is Joe Louis....read again...The Greatest Heavyweight CHAMPION of All-Time is Joe Louis. Was Ali more skilled? Was Lennox more skilled? Was Tyson more skilled? Was anyone else more skilled? Doesn't fucking matter 25 in a row, 1,2...twenty fucking five in a row, set 'em up knock 'em down 1-25....how difficult is that to understand?

    Ali clouda shoulda woulda...you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first JOE LOUIS DID IT....Ali could have.... Joe Louis DID


    Well Joe never fought the likes of Karl Mildenberger or Brian London or Zora Folley or Richard Dunn or Joe Bunger....so don't play like Ali only fought all-time greats either.


    Oh I'm sorry Joe didn't need his glove cut to save him vs Galento or Conn.


    I can say Joe Louis is the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time and back it up and I have....25
    25 defences is truly great and a mark of a great heavyweight because that shows consistency and dedication. I am bringing up 3 great heavyweights who had it not been for Ali would have been greater.

    As Tito said, Liston was a beast with a ram rod jab, had it not been for Ali he could have reigned for years. Frazier proved his top 10 quality. Big George was another monster who proved his greatness by winning the title 20 years later.

    It is all there to see but you choose not to because...?
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Lewis never took hundreds of bombs like Ali did when Ali was 29 against Smoking in 1971 or like Ali taken from Northon in 1973 (jaw-broken fight). Lewis ONLY got bombed out at age 37 against Marciano. Ali retired at 36 after winning the Leon rematch.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    25 defences is truly great and a mark of a great heavyweight because that shows consistency and dedication. I am bringing up 3 great heavyweights who had it not been for Ali would have been greater.

    As Tito said, Liston was a beast with a ram rod jab, had it not been for Ali he could have reigned for years. Frazier proved his top 10 quality. Big George was another monster who proved his greatness by winning the title 20 years later.

    It is all there to see but you choose not to because...?
    You assume they'd be greater.

    Liston would have ruled MAYBE until Leotis Martin beat him. Frazier maybe, who knows how he'd fare vs the guys he never got around to because he was too busy having his head bounce off of Foreman's fists. Foreman lost to Jimmy Young, is that great? Is that incredible?

    25 title defenses happened. Hypothesizing about Ali is obviously an exercise in futility in your mind Ali is STILL undefeated it's the problem discussing him.


    To you and boxing fans who don't bother taking the time to think: Ali's greatness is untouchable, unquestionable....Joe Louis' greatness comes with caveats "Weeeellll akshully he didn't fight great fighters" he fought who was available "Yeah but he didn't fight great fighters"....Were there any he missed? Did he duck anyone? "No, but he didn't fight Liston, Frazier, Foreman"...those may have been one sided as they weren't even babies when Joe was champ "Yeah but he didn't have those guys to fight in his era" ....and so he fought and beat 25 fighters in a row holding on to the title...so no points for consistency, none for work ethic and having what 13 bouts in 1 year? No 'atta boy's for that? OK, I get it...you love Ali and there's nobody else that could even hold a candle to him and his legacy and you're not cool with just YOU thinking that, but I've got to be corrected and think that way too.



    What's the difference? Master? What's the difference? You tell me. "Oh it's the boxers Ali fought" Joe Louis fought 110% of everyone out there available to fight and beat them all....not great? Not acceptable? Not something which stands the test of time? I'm telling you it's not like Louis could go out and get a Frazier or Foreman or Liston and even you agree to that, but yet you STILL fuck around with "Well he didn't fight great fighters".......OK then I guess you're right then. I guess nobody will ever ever ever be better or on a par with Ali because of who he fought, not in the history of boxing, not in the future of boxing, boxing should have just folded and closed the doors when Ali retired because everything to achieve was achieved by Ali forever and ever amen.
    "Drown in a vat of whiskey.....death where is thy sting?" - W.C. Fields.

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    Default Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

    Is that all you got?

    I said 25 defences showed great consistency and an incredible feat but he got beaten up and knocked out before that.

    When did I say Joe had to fight little babies in Frazier?

    What are you going on about?

    Throwing the rattle out of the pram.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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