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Thread: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

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    Default Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose.

    Some theories come to mind.

    a) His lack of boxing skills.

    Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

    b) His early record of bums.

    To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

    c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

    It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

    d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

    Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

    e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

    Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

    f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

    Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



    I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Because he seems to be impervious. Some hated Mayweather too. But I do want to see more matchable fights- A fight with Dillian Whyte, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev or Jarrell Miller would be great for his rep and career.

    But he beat Stiverne and Ortiz, so what else do you want from an "ok" champ?
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Point A for me, his lack of boxing skill, at times he boxes awfully and gets out of jail because of his freakish power. I can not take him seriously and Fury schooled him so it can be done.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by ykdadamaja View Post
    Because he seems to be impervious. Some hated Mayweather too. But I do want to see more matchable fights- A fight with Dillian Whyte, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev or Jarrell Miller would be great for his rep and career.

    But he beat Stiverne and Ortiz, so what else do you want from an "ok" champ?
    This doesn’t make much sense. Pulev? Are we really supposed to believe fighting Pulev would change anyone’s opinion? Because that simply isn’t true.

    Whyte? The guy that has been given 3 chances to earn the fight and refused the fight he was told to take to get Wilder 3 times? But Wilder twice fought the guy Whyte refused 3 times. Keep in mind Whyte had D-Bol(not his first time popping hot) and illegal gloves assisting him in his last fight(thanks UKAD)

    Fury, he fought him. And he was set to fight him again until Fury ducked out, Fury felt so silly about it he lied about what he was getting to duck out.

    Miller? What has Miller ever done? I mean other than popping dirty with everything in his system.

    Wilder is cringe worthy every time he opens his mouth. But he fights men much larger than himself every time out and wins. I would actually like to be a hater because I like skilled boxers and he certainly is not. But he is regarded so unfairly I’m forced to defend the guy.

    Consider this, making things equal by looking at percentages of total body weight. Wilder was at such a disadvantage in size vs Fury that the equivalent would be Inoue fighting a Jr Welterweight. That’s 20.8% bigger than Inoue, 139lbs. Or Lomachenko fight Super Middleweights at 163lbs. Or Crawford fighting Cruiserweights at 178lbs. These are the elite of the elite and we would never expect this of them. Heavyweight is different, yes. But SOME credit is due.

    I will be as happy as anyone when his reign ends but at this point it will mostly be because then people won’t feel the need to be absurdly unfair to the guy. He is no Lennox Lewis, but he has reigned for 5 years and 11 fights. We should tip the cap, it’s more than anyone expected.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    I have never had a problem with Wilder. He is what he is and I don’t really mind his personality. I may not be friends with him in real life, but I’m not annoyed by him like many others are.

    I feel like people’s biggest knock on him is his lack of competition. As you pointed out though, you can’t really use that excuse anymore. We all know that he padded his record for his first 30 fights, but since then, he has actually fought at least decent competition (decent for HW standards).

    Also, whenever you feel like someone is overrated, it’s a natural reaction to speak out. That’s why we talk a lot about Canelo. If Canelo weren’t given so much attention, most of us wouldn’t focus on him that much. Same goes with Wilder. If you think that Wilder isn’t really that good, then you are going to try and prove why he isn’t good.

    All in all, Wilder has done what he has needed to do but is very beatable. With that said, I do think that he is the best HW right now and think that he will win the Fury rematch.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    I don't hate the guy. But I do think he's a bit manufactured and gets by on the cheap. Basically his first 27'ish fights were against stunt men and dishwashers and in more than a few cases Lt heavyweights a couple ex middleweights and a few off massive layoffs..talking 4 to 8 years. Go dig through his early record and watch them. Not exactly a picture of "the biggest puncher in boxing history" as he's spouting off about today. The idea that the right hand is all he needs is exactly what's wrong with so many young fighters, and it's not all he needs as evident in the Fury loss I mean 'draw' . And I can't buy this he's still learning thing. Sure you can always add some polish but the man is what 35? He is what he is and as much as his eraser right hand carries forward so do the flaws which are a glaring part of his package now. By manufactured a bit I mean that with the exception of Ortiz 1..they've all resulted near exactly as expected going in. His last two years has been facing 3 late replacements in title fights..2 of which were nothing more than to repackage the whole huuuuuge puncher like Tyson talk, glacially slow Breazeale and a third trimester Stiverene who had zero intention of showing up for a fight. The Ortiz rematch was ok and fair play to Wilder but in large part meaningless and predictable. Not to mention Ortiz even getting another opportunity after juicing up twice. And again he was being shut out. Then there was Fury, who like others actually got up off that right hand and had in large part boxed Wilders ears. He goes on about devastating a Szpilka or a Liakhovich and talks about thinking he killed them. Truth is they were both bombed out prior and bombed out after by others. Now I know this sounds like a pure slag on a man who has done nothing but win, save for one, and that's all you can ask of a guy. For that Wilder should be respected and does bring an air of 'personality' and excitement. Well done for him. But in an odd way it almost feels boring imo. Then again I've always thought the heavyweights a bit overrated and have never liked the tunnel vision focus of raking up ko numbers which can be stacked up like legos. It's not a hate. For all the bluster he seems a decent enough cat. I just don't think he comes remotely close to accomplishing or applying skill and competing on the levels of so many of those earlier heavies.
    Last edited by Spicoli; 11-24-2019 at 09:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose.

    Some theories come to mind.

    a) His lack of boxing skills.

    Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

    b) His early record of bums.

    To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

    c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

    It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

    d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

    Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

    e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

    Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

    f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

    Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



    I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.
    Everything except B and F. The guy’s a prick, end of.
    And I Don’t buy the point about him fighting Fury is like Crawford fighting a Cruiserweight. Meaningless nonsense!
    So what about Haye fighting Valuev?
    Former Undisputed 4 belt Prediction champion. Still P4P and People’s Champion.

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primo Carnera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan View Post
    Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose.

    Some theories come to mind.

    a) His lack of boxing skills.

    Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

    b) His early record of bums.

    To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

    c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

    It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

    d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

    Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

    e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

    Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

    f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

    Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



    I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.
    Everything except B and F. The guy’s a prick, end of.
    And I Don’t buy the point about him fighting Fury is like Crawford fighting a Cruiserweight. Meaningless nonsense!
    So what about Haye fighting Valuev?
    Math is meaningless. The most Primo comment ever. So good I want to injected it directly into my veins.

    Math bad, opinion good ug ug haha

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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    In this instance for me because though Wilder has looked lazy before, he has never looked so much like a one trick pony. Completely outboxed and did very little. I don't buy into the still learning and started boxing late argument as he could be working on things year in year out with expert coaches. He is resting on that single weapon now and it will be his undoing. All it takes is for someone to last a few rounds more and Fury for instance has probably taken a lot of confidence from this. He knows what he did wrong last time and doesn't need to be very fan friendly to shut Wilder down.
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Actually on re-watching it I think the referee was far too quick to call it off. Ortiz was not out like Fury, did get up, and had a full minute or so between rounds to evaluate where he was at. I think it was a premature stoppage.
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Actually on re-watching it I think the referee was far too quick to call it off. Ortiz was not out like Fury, did get up, and had a full minute or so between rounds to evaluate where he was at. I think it was a premature stoppage.
    I said the same about Herol Graham v Julian Jackson
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark TKO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    Actually on re-watching it I think the referee was far too quick to call it off. Ortiz was not out like Fury, did get up, and had a full minute or so between rounds to evaluate where he was at. I think it was a premature stoppage.
    I said the same about Herol Graham v Julian Jackson
    \

    Graham was old cold, Ortiz was a bit like Fury in that he was nowhere for a couple of seconds, then putting his mouth piece in and getting up, he was regaining his senses pretty quickly. Another 90 seconds and who knows. They could have stopped it between rounds if Ortiz was really bad. He was hardly Hatton'ed. He was doing his post fight interviews and all of that. I am a benefit of the doubt kind of person. This ref would have held Fury down or something.
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Ortiz reminded me of Tyson trying to put his gum shield back into his mouth when he lost against Buster Douglas. He was “out if it” and was in no fit state to carry on.
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Wilder talks bollocks we all know that - I don't really pay any attention. A lot of fighters talk bollocks its part of the game.

    Wilder fights to his strengths and at the moment its working for him so I'm not going to slate him. His record speaks for itself - yes there are tomato cans along the way but who hasn't got those.

    2020 will hopefully see him, Fury, AJ and Ruiz fight off - even if a couple of them lose against each other I think theres worth in them still fighting the others as the styles make it interesting.

    There's not many fighters who don't get flak from knowledgeable fans so hey ho
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    Default Re: Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

    Wilder is still learning? Blimey. Even Manny Steward told him to just do what you do
    Last edited by Fenster; 11-25-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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