Thread: Showtime boxing KO'd

What has been chatter in the wind for a while now has finally come yesterday. Paramount Global is shutting down Showtime sports effective 2024 and with it goes the storied and constant programming that was Showtime boxing for the last 37 years! This temporarily puts PBC and Al Haymon adrift and more importantly hundreds of employees out of work and fighters without a big stage to perform on. Talks are apparently underway with different platforms in hopes of a new deal for Pbc events from Paramount+ to Amazon to even Dazn. The last one I cannot see happening.

Simply put, this sucks. Many of us remember when HBO remained on its stool and opted out of the boxing in 2018 and like then, this doesn't come as a shock. Showing my age but that loss left a void that has yet to be filled. The weekly/monthly consistency and the actual building od careers and BIG fights. Still though as a fan first who has never rooted myself in the backroom dealings, the politics of this promoter vs that promoter or the cult of personality drama that has slowly crept into the sport thanks in part to 24/7 social media and twatter flame wars...this is not good for boxing. Not at all. Yet there are so many celebrating "vindication" as it pertains to Haymon and his business model or lack thereof. Been saying it for years but with the constant ppvs it felt like there was no actual long term investment in the future. Everything needed to be a going out of business sale, huge cash grab up front and happen in the instant. Losing a major platform is no grave to dance on and it all boils down to one less 'ring' to launch a next generation of boxers from. So goes technology so goes the sport. It's going to be interesting to see where and when the pbc guys land. Thanks for the vault of great memories and fights Showtime .

Yeah, I saw this on the news. "Sucks" is an understatement. This is tragic for some of us old-time, hardcore boxing fans. I very much remember the times you mentioned when HBO and Showtime were both the mainstays of championship boxing. I always looked forward to the intros to the boxing cards on those networks. The days of Buffer on HBO, and Lennon on Showtime. The electric atmosphere of the entirety of the programming.

To me, this is just another brick falling off the wall. Another move toward some sad times in boxing. Everything now is streaming, overcharging for everything... specially making a travesty of PPV fights (where everything now is PPV). I guess the sport will survive. It always has. But it's morphing into a totally different product. Even fighters nowadays are different. It's all about "getting there" as quickly and painlessly as possible... maybe with tons of social media following and out-of-the-ring hype. Fighters now talk more than ever, even more than they fight.

But I went off on a tangent.

Fact it... I'm totally bummed out about Showtime. So far I've resisted paying for DAZN... and for the foreseeable future, I don't see that changing.

I thought Showtime was producing some big boxing events recently so this is sad.

Maybe ESPN will take over.

ESPN is talking about cutting boxing as well.
This all relates back to the proliferation of titles- because sanctioning fees drive up costs- and the PBC business model of throwing stupid money at fighters. The trend that they started of overpaying everybody to attract names has done a lot of damage. They have been paying Ennis over a million for filler fights- in essence that is what they have been- so what is he going to demand to fight for a title or against somebody that might challenge him?
I have had conversations with fighters that, for example, came up with GBP, became champions and were making good money. They bought into the PBC allure and made good money for a fight or two, then watched they career stagnate because they couldn't get fights. PBC couldn't afford to put on fights, plain and simple. The business model didn't turn a profit and the OPM ran out.
I believe it is DAZN that recently reported that they have lost huge amounts of money over the last few years. They are throwing money at fights that have no chance to recoup. On the other side of the coin, promotional companies like Top Rank and GBP that are playing with their own money and try to turn a profit get labelled as cheapskates. But if you have a fighter that you are trying to build, you will go to TR or GBP- especially TR- because they know how to do it and run shows that he can fight on.
In my opinion boxing is going to go back to local promoters building fighters that draw locally. This will lead to a resurgence of locally televised fights and, hopefully, more local opportunities to be active and a more sensible financial expectation for all parties involved.

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

ESPN is talking about cutting boxing as well.
This all relates back to the proliferation of titles- because sanctioning fees drive up costs- and the PBC business model of throwing stupid money at fighters. The trend that they started of overpaying everybody to attract names has done a lot of damage. They have been paying Ennis over a million for filler fights- in essence that is what they have been- so what is he going to demand to fight for a title or against somebody that might challenge him?
I have had conversations with fighters that, for example, came up with GBP, became champions and were making good money. They bought into the PBC allure and made good money for a fight or two, then watched they career stagnate because they couldn't get fights. PBC couldn't afford to put on fights, plain and simple. The business model didn't turn a profit and the OPM ran out.
I believe it is DAZN that recently reported that they have lost huge amounts of money over the last few years. They are throwing money at fights that have no chance to recoup. On the other side of the coin, promotional companies like Top Rank and GBP that are playing with their own money and try to turn a profit get labelled as cheapskates. But if you have a fighter that you are trying to build, you will go to TR or GBP- especially TR- because they know how to do it and run shows that he can fight on.
In my opinion boxing is going to go back to local promoters building fighters that draw locally. This will lead to a resurgence of locally televised fights and, hopefully, more local opportunities to be active and a more sensible financial expectation for all parties involved.

Good analysis. I've always thought there should've been some sort of controlling, umbrella structure overseeing what goes on in the different boxing alphabet orgs. All are guilty of belt proliferation. But the WBC has taken it to an art form. They seem to thumb their nose at public opinion, making up all kinds of weird belts and titles, seemingly winging it as they go along. Nobody in their right minds gives a damn about "Interim", "Regular", "Super", "Franchise", blah, blah, blah, blah. It's all a blur.

As you said, greed has killed the sport. Everyone wants their cut... and the bar for PPV fights has also dropped through the floor. In keeping with the instant gratification generation, up-and-coming fighters want their money NOW. One good fight, and they demand the fame, money, and notoriety that comes with it. Casual, groupie fans (at least for the high-profile fighters) don't help the cause any. It's all about Instagram followings. Also, although there's always been a good amount of trash-talking in boxing... it now seems like that's ALL fighters do nowadays... TALK. Especially in the HW division, with the likes of Tyson Fury and the traveling circus.

Boxing has survived a lot of shit. Calls for banning the sport whenever someone tragically dies in the ring... a slew of corrupt and/or inept and shady bout decisions... and as much ducking and marinating as boxing fans can stand (and more). But this feels like a slow-motion mudslide. We all know it's coming... but not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

It's a damn shame.

Originally Posted by TitoFan

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

ESPN is talking about cutting boxing as well.
This all relates back to the proliferation of titles- because sanctioning fees drive up costs- and the PBC business model of throwing stupid money at fighters. The trend that they started of overpaying everybody to attract names has done a lot of damage. They have been paying Ennis over a million for filler fights- in essence that is what they have been- so what is he going to demand to fight for a title or against somebody that might challenge him?
I have had conversations with fighters that, for example, came up with GBP, became champions and were making good money. They bought into the PBC allure and made good money for a fight or two, then watched they career stagnate because they couldn't get fights. PBC couldn't afford to put on fights, plain and simple. The business model didn't turn a profit and the OPM ran out.
I believe it is DAZN that recently reported that they have lost huge amounts of money over the last few years. They are throwing money at fights that have no chance to recoup. On the other side of the coin, promotional companies like Top Rank and GBP that are playing with their own money and try to turn a profit get labelled as cheapskates. But if you have a fighter that you are trying to build, you will go to TR or GBP- especially TR- because they know how to do it and run shows that he can fight on.
In my opinion boxing is going to go back to local promoters building fighters that draw locally. This will lead to a resurgence of locally televised fights and, hopefully, more local opportunities to be active and a more sensible financial expectation for all parties involved.

Good analysis. I've always thought there should've been some sort of controlling, umbrella structure overseeing what goes on in the different boxing alphabet orgs. All are guilty of belt proliferation. But the WBC has taken it to an art form. They seem to thumb their nose at public opinion, making up all kinds of weird belts and titles, seemingly winging it as they go along. Nobody in their right minds gives a damn about "Interim", "Regular", "Super", "Franchise", blah, blah, blah, blah. It's all a blur.

As you said, greed has killed the sport. Everyone wants their cut... and the bar for PPV fights has also dropped through the floor. In keeping with the instant gratification generation, up-and-coming fighters want their money NOW. One good fight, and they demand the fame, money, and notoriety that comes with it. Casual, groupie fans (at least for the high-profile fighters) don't help the cause any. It's all about Instagram followings. Also, although there's always been a good amount of trash-talking in boxing... it now seems like that's ALL fighters do nowadays... TALK. Especially in the HW division, with the likes of Tyson Fury and the traveling circus.

Boxing has survived a lot of shit. Calls for banning the sport whenever someone tragically dies in the ring... a slew of corrupt and/or inept and shady bout decisions... and as much ducking and marinating as boxing fans can stand (and more). But this feels like a slow-motion mudslide. We all know it's coming... but not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

It's a damn shame.

It has gone crazy. You put on a show and the 4 round fighters think that they should get $2000 on a card that might draw 4000. You have guys in the gym that are always calling each other out, that have 'beef' over 'disrecpect' but nobody is doing the work. They don't understand how the money works. I have seen guys fighting 6 round fights get paid thousands but they didn't sign a contract to get paid- they sold tickets.
Boxing won't die. Over the last year or so i have seen a lot more regional shows; those guys don't have television so they depend on live gates so a fighter has to draw.
Another thing that has contributed to the decline is the FMJ "protect the 0" mentality. But if the focus shifts back to live draws, a guy that loses a few will still get work, and make money if people will pay to see him fight.

Less powerful TV guys will probably lead to more of the fights getting made, no need to argue between networks now, unfortunately the Saudis will probably run boxing for a while in their place.

Saudi money will dry up and you tuber boxers will not stay too long once people see how poor they are compared to professional boxers.

Local promoters and boxing events will continue to happen and will be eventually picked up by TV once the fighter gets big enough.

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

ESPN is talking about cutting boxing as well.
This all relates back to the proliferation of titles- because sanctioning fees drive up costs- and the PBC business model of throwing stupid money at fighters. The trend that they started of overpaying everybody to attract names has done a lot of damage. They have been paying Ennis over a million for filler fights- in essence that is what they have been- so what is he going to demand to fight for a title or against somebody that might challenge him?
I have had conversations with fighters that, for example, came up with GBP, became champions and were making good money. They bought into the PBC allure and made good money for a fight or two, then watched they career stagnate because they couldn't get fights. PBC couldn't afford to put on fights, plain and simple. The business model didn't turn a profit and the OPM ran out.
I believe it is DAZN that recently reported that they have lost huge amounts of money over the last few years. They are throwing money at fights that have no chance to recoup. On the other side of the coin, promotional companies like Top Rank and GBP that are playing with their own money and try to turn a profit get labelled as cheapskates. But if you have a fighter that you are trying to build, you will go to TR or GBP- especially TR- because they know how to do it and run shows that he can fight on.
In my opinion boxing is going to go back to local promoters building fighters that draw locally. This will lead to a resurgence of locally televised fights and, hopefully, more local opportunities to be active and a more sensible financial expectation for all parties involved.

Very well put there. In general the overpaying created many problems for promotions, Gbp, pbc and dazn alike and they resigned themselves to kicking the can down the road. The whole clamor for short-term profit via mainly one sided ppv, tune ups being million dollar affairs...multi millions to Andrade or M. Garcia as example. It's all playing out like there was no long term vision or even foresight that it simply was not sustainable. Consequently, now inactivity is massive as fighters are not 'getting' the huge purse they feel as though they deserve. I'm all for fighters getting their bucks but hearing guys like Ruiz and Wilder call for 10 million it's just ridiculous. So they sit and do nothing. There was a time when getting to the massive stage of say HBO was part of the draw. It factored in as it meant you arrived.

Not to beat the dead horse but I'll always believe the across the board loss of consistent low cost or even free network 'tv' exposure will hobble the sport. There was a lasting anticipation and almost tunneling of focus when it came to developing and building fighters to a payoff. Not the payoff upfront as it seems today. Growing a fan base. Apps and streaming are here and are not going away but it's all pretty fractured and almost reverts..in a way..boxing again off the front page and bigger stage. I just don't know how a return to tv would play out. It's very much a generational thing as now it's mockingly dismissed as old media. But when it came to boxing long gone are the days of literally 4-5 cards/title fights a week. Local promotions as you rightly key on always benefited from networks coming to locals and putting young talent on a monthly and multi annual run. Guys like Boots Ennis should be years ahead of where he is and a known force now. He would actually blow a Philly fight scene up. So many local 'big' hubs have seemingly dried up. Barclays Center has not held a card of any sort in over a year!

NBC have picked up the Sky fights which should be great news for you guys. They are a free channel?

Originally Posted by Spicoli

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

ESPN is talking about cutting boxing as well.
This all relates back to the proliferation of titles- because sanctioning fees drive up costs- and the PBC business model of throwing stupid money at fighters. The trend that they started of overpaying everybody to attract names has done a lot of damage. They have been paying Ennis over a million for filler fights- in essence that is what they have been- so what is he going to demand to fight for a title or against somebody that might challenge him?
I have had conversations with fighters that, for example, came up with GBP, became champions and were making good money. They bought into the PBC allure and made good money for a fight or two, then watched they career stagnate because they couldn't get fights. PBC couldn't afford to put on fights, plain and simple. The business model didn't turn a profit and the OPM ran out.
I believe it is DAZN that recently reported that they have lost huge amounts of money over the last few years. They are throwing money at fights that have no chance to recoup. On the other side of the coin, promotional companies like Top Rank and GBP that are playing with their own money and try to turn a profit get labelled as cheapskates. But if you have a fighter that you are trying to build, you will go to TR or GBP- especially TR- because they know how to do it and run shows that he can fight on.
In my opinion boxing is going to go back to local promoters building fighters that draw locally. This will lead to a resurgence of locally televised fights and, hopefully, more local opportunities to be active and a more sensible financial expectation for all parties involved.

Very well put there. In general the overpaying created many problems for promotions, Gbp, pbc and dazn alike and they resigned themselves to kicking the can down the road. The whole clamor for short-term profit via mainly one sided ppv, tune ups being million dollar affairs...multi millions to Andrade or M. Garcia as example. It's all playing out like there was no long term vision or even foresight that it simply was not sustainable. Consequently, now inactivity is massive as fighters are not 'getting' the huge purse they feel as though they deserve. I'm all for fighters getting their bucks but hearing guys like Ruiz and Wilder call for 10 million it's just ridiculous. So they sit and do nothing. There was a time when getting to the massive stage of say HBO was part of the draw. It factored in as it meant you arrived.

Not to beat the dead horse but I'll always believe the across the board loss of consistent low cost or even free network 'tv' exposure will hobble the sport. There was a lasting anticipation and almost tunneling of focus when it came to developing and building fighters to a payoff. Not the payoff upfront as it seems today. Growing a fan base. Apps and streaming are here and are not going away but it's all pretty fractured and almost reverts..in a way..boxing again off the front page and bigger stage. I just don't know how a return to tv would play out. It's very much a generational thing as now it's mockingly dismissed as old media. But when it came to boxing long gone are the days of literally 4-5 cards/title fights a week. Local promotions as you rightly key on always benefited from networks coming to locals and putting young talent on a monthly and multi annual run. Guys like Boots Ennis should be years ahead of where he is and a known force now. He would actually blow a Philly fight scene up. So many local 'big' hubs have seemingly dried up. Barclays Center has not held a card of any sort in over a year!

Television is a weird thing for boxing. Supposedly TV brought more money into the game but, before TV, there were a lot more fighters and trainers and managers and promoters making a living from boxing than there were years later. Very few people make a living from boxing in 2023. And a live show...I have never known anybody that went to their first live fight card and didn't leave mesmerized.
But then you run across the other thing and that is "protecting the 0." Look at JCC and Yori Boy Campos. When Chavez made his debut at the Olympic they put him in with Adrian Arreola, wh0, as you know, was a very good fighter and a very good draw. It was a good, tough, competitive fight and, when they brought Chavez back to fight Azabache Martinez, they sold out. When Yori Boy debuted at the Olympic, the new Mexican KO sensation fought a one armed sheepherder and sold 3000 tickets. When they brought him back against the one armed sheepherder's blind brother, the fight fell through because of zero interest.
The renewal of boxing will come, if it does, from guys that love boxing and take the risk and put on fights- good fights- that people will pay to see. They will build fighters the old way, based on who the people want to see. Fundamentally, you have to wean yourself away from the addiction to "TV money" because it is ultimately detrimental. I'm seeing a lot of that going on in Texas and Mexico right now, where they are putting guys with good records that are good draws, in fights with one another. And they are drawing well and making money.

I thought they would have kept it since they killed HBO Boxing. I think women are behind this. Their pressure groups hate that we enjoy the fights. They want to change everything.

Originally Posted by ykdadamaja

I thought they would have kept it since they killed HBO Boxing. I think women are behind this. Their pressure groups hate that we enjoy the fights. They want to change everything.

Women are not to blame for the demise of boxing. In fact women boxers are generating more interest than ever before for their sport.

Long term it's probably a good thing if Showtime drop it. It could lead to a rationalisation between the main players.

Look at how it looks for guys like Haymon and Arum right now. Haymon I have no idea how he's still going. He's managed to lose hundreds of millions of dollars for his investors since he started PBC. Maybe the whole thing folds now or staggers on much reduced. Arum could be on the outs with ESPN. They've both watched UFC blow past them and build a solid product because they can make the best guys fight each other whenever they want. Haymon here has an issue because he's effectively managing a lot of these fighters too and thus the big paydays. But if he's going to survive he's going to have to UFCise the product. If things get so bad that it finally makes the top few promoters get together and launch some kind of streaming thing that would be great for boxing long term.

You're always going to have regional promoters and shows. But to build nationally known fighters you're going to have to have guys who have the funds to run a big promotional company. And those funds depend on TV/ streaming/etc money. If boxing manages to be unprofitable at current pay rates for outfits like DAZN they'll drop it. DAZN might not exist soon. The guy who owns it has lost about six billion dollars since he set it up. The whole industry is in a state of flux. If somebody or a combination of somebodies most likely want to put up the funds to try and UFC the whole thing it's going to have to start with lower purses and big outlets like Paramount and ESPN (Disney) pulling out can only speed that up.

It's going to take whoever is still standing to get together and drop the sanctioning bodies. But have just enough money to offer to keep fighters away from second tier promoters who will then move in to try and work with the alphabet guys. Maybe the Muhammad Ali Act kicks in. Maybe promoters working together is seen as keeping purses down. Existing boxers have contracts with managers and the managers would be on the outs in this kind of scenario. UFC fighters don't have them. Not sure how UFC get away with that but in boxing likely you'd get endless Muhammad Ali Act lawsuits if somebody tried something like this.

Things look to be be fucked up for a while. The entire entertainment/movie/streaming/TV industry is in a state of flux right now. Lots of things that were solid profit earners are no longer making money. Disney are looking at selling off ABC. But honestly the less money that's in boxing for a while might help it long term. Or maybe I'm wrong and it might end up at a significantly lower level than it is now with UFC and boxing fights between youtubers and social media people making more money.

Ahh... yes... UFC. That obnoxious uncle that manages to embarrass everyone at family Christmas parties, yet everyone wants to keep on inviting.

For the record, I've never been a UFC fan, and reckon I never will. I'm fundamentally against any sport where it's ok to pummel your unconscious opponent as he's lying flat on his back... or at least until the ref jumps in, which is usually a few punches too late. I also don't like wrestling. I respect the sport, but don't like to watch it. So the grappling part of UFC does nothing to spark my interest.

But yeah... UFC is here to stay, and has been for a long time. Something about a high-walled octagon and no-holds-barred fight in front of a bloodthirsty crowd seems to have a "gladiator-ish" appeal to it. I've always preferred boxing, even if it IS weighed down by all the factors already mentioned in previous posts and other threads.

Since I don't watch UFC, I have no idea whether or not it suffers from the same malady of corrupt/ inept judging that boxing does. I imagine there are no "Canelos" in UFC (coddled, cherry-picking, trinket-chasing, clause-demanding divas)... which is one big plus for them. The day that happens, we'll know UFC is ruined as well.

Boxing, as has been said many times before, has survived a lot of negatives. It's one of the oldest sports around. Us hardcore fans hang on to our fandom through good times and bad. But again... it's like watching the Titanic race toward the iceberg while not being able to do anything about it.