Thread: mayweather: margarito: the defense rests

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The Neutral Corner by Jason Probst (April 16, 2006) Photo © Will Hart/HBO
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I’ve never been a lawyer, but watching fights sometimes seems like you’re going through case law books looking for the relevant legal precedent to make a critical decision.

That was the case last Saturday night – or so it seems on paper as viewed by my humble four eyes – with Floyd Mayweathe Jr’s decision win over Zab Judah. Before the two went a compelling twelve rounds, I was tiling toward Antonio Margarito as the world’s best welterweight, but the evidence Mayweather displayed of his considerable ring genius has put me firmly back in his court.

He’s still fast enough to catch greased lighting and avoid it at the same time, and that will be why I’d pick him over any welter in the world – Oscar De La Hoya included (oh! How the seemingly inviolable walls of firm conclusions fall!). He is too damn fast and before you beat a man, you must solve his speed. Margarito holds many keys to beating a guy like Mayweather.

He is not afraid to miss, is rugged and big and aggressive in the classical Mexican grinder style – but in the pantheon of precedent I’ve been wrong too many times on a case like this to go that direction again.

Mayweather is just too, well, Mayweather. It would still be a wonderful fight but I’d pick him, even over Margarito. That wasn’t the case before Saturday, and I’d guess that’s why his showing against Judah seemed far more interesting than the fight stood on its own merits, largely a case between a good horse and a great horse with little suspense as to the outcome after the first couple furlongs.

Mayweather’s radar against a never-better Judah was, indeed, the case citation The Corner was looking for. The correlation between Margarito and Judah, stylistically, has no more in common than Bette Midler and Billie Holiday. Yet the baseline of competency for Mayweather revealed some hard-earned facts: his reflexes will hold up under the smaller margins of fighting a capable welterweight, and he can take a punch.

Yes. That’s right. He has a very good chin.

This was a humorous point of good-natured contention during a discussion I had with Lance Williams, my man who hosts Bob ‘n Weave radio, who is kind enough to have me on as a guest from time to time. Last week Lance quipped that the phrase ”good chin” and “Mayweather” might not go together in the same sentence. But when you consider the elusive question of Mayweather’s chin, the fact that he’s been a pro for nine years now and still has not had to make any kind of a tough stand to demonstrate any kind of temporary mandibular resilience, to say nothing of an extended Waterloo of sorts, by default that means he has a good beard.

Floyd’s may be cast iron or merely moderately thick, but the key distinguishing factor is that his brilliant reflexes serve as an early warning system. He is rarely caught unaware, which is an underlooked but key factor in taking a shot.

When you look at a young Cassius Clay floored by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper, that was a case of his footwork and defensive positioning needing refinement. But once his technical game caught up to his reflexes, he was very tough to hurt, much less knock off his feet. It was also what carried him well beyond his best years, and if there’s a recent predecessor for Mayweather’s potential duration at the top level of the game it’s Roy Jones, whom I suspect had the same good beard yet so rarely had to show it.

The difference is Mayweather will have many more big fights than Jones did, as opposed to events where by the mere act of showing up he will win the stakes at hand.

I used to pick against Pernell Whitaker, too. I was young and simplistic (or perhaps merely less so) and could never really grasp the nuanced genius of what Whitaker did, how he operated in the master craftsman’s envelope, and handcuffed people from doing the things that made them effective.

Whitaker took away all your weapons, piece by piece, and did as much a mental job on you as anything inflicted in the physical realm. Whitaker, like Mayweather, was a grand con artist of the grinning cerebral sort – he duped you into being too willing to not look bad when he peppered your jabs with counter crosses, sashayed under and around your best combinations, and popped you in the mug before scooting away.

As he rose in weight, a key differentiator in Whitaker’s performances was that he started to lose a round or two, almost always early, probably due to the weight differential and creeping age, before dialing and taking the wings off the bird.

Mayweather did that against Judah. He gave Zab his best shot at unleashing his top-notch stuff – and Judah’s game was very tight – nodded his head, and proceeded to solve the riddle with much room to spare. And Judah’s hands were so much faster than Margarito’s it is now impossible to think Floyd won’t have considerably more time to decide and react. Given that, he is very, very hard to beat. You don’t beat Garry Kasparov by letting him move first and set the tone.

Sure, Margarito is stronger. He won’t give up after four rounds, which was the case with Judah. Not in the “No Mas” fashion, but the “silent contract” so often mentioned by the astute Teddy Atlas, when a guy realizes the game plan is not working, and he falls into a hum-drum mode of showing the flag only occasionally in exchange for the right not to take a worse beating.

It is doubtful Margarito would sign on the dotted line as quickly, but the two Jose Luis Castillo fights suggest that Mayweather can make a virtual no-hitter out of it, winning just enough rounds and minimal exchanges, while being virtually invisible. It remains, at the end of the day, a fascinating proposition between these two, but this is no time to go against the obvious bedrock of reason. Mayweather is the best fighter in the world for a reason – I’ve had him at the top of my pound for pound list since mid-2002 – and to jump ship now would only be a heretical move undermining all the logic that got him there.

I know this writer. He loves controversy and to write in different perspectives. He writes opposite of the trend. He's good when everybody is bad.

I like him sometimes, but most of the time I feel like he's that kid who likes independent films, only because they aren't popular.

Other than that, he hints at Margarito's lack of heart, on no basis of a "lack-less" performance on Margarito's part. He also uses Teddy Atlas' name, who by the way actually thinks Margarito could hold his own against Mayweather. He also uses the case as Margarito's lack of Judah's speed as a crucial weakness. ... Dude, you don't need to be faster than your opponent to beat him.

And an argument for Mayweather for number one, has to include Manny Pacquiao and Winky Wright into it's reasons, in my opinion.

And last but not least, this article doesn't say it out loud, but it alludes to Mayweather vs Margarito a worthless fight for Floyd. He doesn't flat out say it, that would "not be original." But any fighter who wants to be known as the man at Welterweight, has to go through the most consistent Welterweight Champion in the business, IN MY OPINION.

An interesting article by Jason Probst, though verbose and flowery. I do take issue with 1 point though. He likens Floyd Mayweather Jr. to Pernell Whitaker. Although Whitaker won many fights against world class opponents and was an all-time great in the lightweight division, his style was different than Mayweather's. Whitaker lacked the inside skills that Floyd has. Pernell relied on holding a lot more, and frustrated opponents rather than dominating them. Although Mayweather held quite a bit against Jose Luis Castillo, he usually does not fight that way. He often fights on the inside with almost no holding, using his left shoulder and gloves to block punches. I saw him fight that way against Jesus Chavez in Nov. 2001, who was very aggressive, pinning Mayweather to the ropes. It was a great fight as long as it lasted, but Mayweather's power and speed wore down Chavez.

I still value the concept of a Lineal Champion I believe to be the man, u beat the man, even if it is popular consensus that he isn't the best in the division. The IBF showed its worth staying around Zabs waste.


If Gatti beats Baldomir (I pray he does) then I may have to rethink my position on lineal.

Originally Posted by mokele

An interesting article by Jason Probst, though verbose and flowery. I do take issue with 1 point though. He likens Floyd Mayweather Jr. to Pernell Whitaker. Although Whitaker won many fights against world class opponents and was an all-time great in the lightweight division, his style was different than Mayweather's. Whitaker lacked the inside skills that Floyd has. Pernell relied on holding a lot more, and frustrated opponents rather than dominating them. Although Mayweather held quite a bit against Jose Luis Castillo, he usually does not fight that way. He often fights on the inside with almost no holding, using his left shoulder and gloves to block punches. I saw him fight that way against Jesus Chavez in Nov. 2001, who was very aggressive, pinning Mayweather to the ropes. It was a great fight as long as it lasted, but Mayweather's power and speed wore down Chavez.

Nice! cc

Whitaker could fight inside when he had to, his holds were part of his style to do what he did best and that is frustrate. Whitaker was something else, and Mayweather is a gift, not like Pernell but a gift none the less. Pernell would have won every round from Margarito. I think it will be competitive only because unlike many great fighters Floyd cares how he looks in the ring when he's fighting, this will get him caught more then he needs to be.

cc FOR ARTICLE mILES.!

But the writer makes quite a few silly comments whichh have been pointed out superbly(as per usual)by brother Gyrokai,CC.

Originally Posted by Gyrokai

I know this writer. He loves controversy and to write in different perspectives. He writes opposite of the trend. He's good when everybody is bad.

I like him sometimes, but most of the time I feel like he's that kid who likes independent films, only because they aren't popular.

Other than that, he hints at Margarito's lack of heart, on no basis of a "lack-less" performance on Margarito's part. He also uses Teddy Atlas' name, who by the way actually thinks Margarito could hold his own against Mayweather. He also uses the case as Margarito's lack of Judah's speed as a crucial weakness. ... Dude, you don't need to be faster than your opponent to beat him.

And an argument for Mayweather for number one, has to include Manny Pacquiao and Winky Wright into it's reasons, in my opinion.

And last but not least, this article doesn't say it out loud, but it alludes to Mayweather vs Margarito a worthless fight for Floyd. He doesn't flat out say it, that would "not be original." But any fighter who wants to be known as the man at Welterweight, has to go through the most consistent Welterweight Champion in the business, IN MY OPINION.

I agree Angel Eyes,Pernell would beat Margarito but there is noooo way he would win every round and because he was so small,if he tried to hold on against Tony,would catch a few smacks in the mouth Six Heads Lewis StylE

Originally Posted by The Game

cc FOR ARTICLE mILES.!

thanks pal, clicked ya back

its going to be very interesting whether mayweather is now going to give us the fights we want him to make....i sure hope we wont be left dissapointed....