Thread: Wannabe Welterweights..

Paul williams and antonio margarito are only in the welterweight division because at the time it was the hottest division on earth because pbf was still fighting.
These guys should be in the middleweight division but they just want pick on the little guys.
i think that boxing still needs pbf but why should he take the risk of fighting these fully grown middlewights when he wont be paid enough. he already beat the most famous middle weight in the world already in oscar!
I am really surprised when I hear people defending these supposedly feared fighters when it just comes down to the fact they dont want to fight at there own weight.
Antonio wont even fight williams again..p'ssy.

Sup

Not sure what to say to this thread. I mean. Every fighter should fight where he is most effective. Corrales tried to jump to WW at the end of his career (RIP), I guess you could call him a fake welterweight?

Tommy Hearns? No way he walked around at that weight when he fought Leonard (1). I mean he went up to Cruiserweight for God's sake.

Originally Posted by imp

Paul williams and antonio margarito are only in the welterweight division because at the time it was the hottest division on earth because pbf was still fighting.
These guys should be in the middleweight division but they just want pick on the little guys.
i think that boxing still needs pbf but why should he take the risk of fighting these fully grown middlewights when he wont be paid enough. he already beat the most famous middle weight in the world already in oscar!
I am really surprised when I hear people defending these supposedly feared fighters when it just comes down to the fact they dont want to fight at there own weight.
Antonio wont even fight williams again..p'ssy.

He's not more a fake WW than almost of the fighters Featherweight down. All those guys put on a higher percentage of their body weights after official weigh in than Tony and Paul. I guess Hopkins was a fake MW, too, since he had to run something like 8 miles per day to keep his weight off.

Paul Williams will be a middleweight soon enough. I see Pavlik vs Williams happening within two years, maybe sooner rather than later, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony move up before he retires.

Corrales was shot by the time he went up to welterweight, he jumped 140 to do it against one of the best WW's in the world, and he fought well its just Clottey was too big, and strong. I think if Corrales would have taken the time to naturally become a welterweight he would have been fine, but he had been through two brutal fights wtih Castillo, he was killing himself to make weight at 135, and I think mistreating his body like that made it impossible for him to be a contender at 147. I mean Margarito 5'11 at 147, But Corrales was 6' at 130. He was huge, and could hit very hard, had fast hands, good boxing skills when he used them. He was a beast.

Bernard Hopkins was a different situation because all fighters generally go to higher weight classes as their career go on, but Bernard was 40 before he left the middleweight division, in order to survive he needed to keep his weight down, but he fought at middleweight forever without problems making weight.

I have no problem with guys like Paul Williams and Margarito fighting at 147, I would hate to see them ruin their bodies for the rest of their lives making it, but I don't want to see a fighter give up an advantage, especially that advantage to appease certain fans. Margarito wouldn't survive at 154 where guys are bigger than him, and Santos proved that, but at 147 he is a beast. I think it makes guys like MAyweather who climb so high, and still beat the big guys all the more impressive.

Originally Posted by Taeth

Corrales was shot by the time he went up to welterweight, he jumped 140 to do it against one of the best WW's in the world, and he fought well its just Clottey was too big, and strong. I think if Corrales would have taken the time to naturally become a welterweight he would have been fine, but he had been through two brutal fights wtih Castillo, he was killing himself to make weight at 135, and I think mistreating his body like that made it impossible for him to be a contender at 147. I mean Margarito 5'11 at 147, But Corrales was 6' at 130. He was huge, and could hit very hard, had fast hands, good boxing skills when he used them. He was a beast.

Bernard Hopkins was a different situation because all fighters generally go to higher weight classes as their career go on, but Bernard was 40 before he left the middleweight division, in order to survive he needed to keep his weight down, but he fought at middleweight forever without problems making weight.

I have no problem with guys like Paul Williams and Margarito fighting at 147, I would hate to see them ruin their bodies for the rest of their lives making it, but I don't want to see a fighter give up an advantage, especially that advantage to appease certain fans. Margarito wouldn't survive at 154 where guys are bigger than him, and Santos proved that, but at 147 he is a beast. I think it makes guys like MAyweather who climb so high, and still beat the big guys all the more impressive.

It's not fair to say that Tony wouldn't survive at 154 and that Santos "proved" that. Tony is a better fighter than a guy who lost to Santos, and also, Santos is a tall southpaw. Three of Tony's losses have come to tall Southpaws. Maybe that's a coincidence, but some of it might be a matchup issue. Also, the Santos fight was extremely close, Tony was ahead on one card, and if it didn't go to the cards early because of the cut, Margo may well have one that fight. You could say he doesn't belong there if he got sparked or dominated by Santos, but he didn't. And it's not like Santos is chopped liver. He's one of the top guys at 154. I would heavily favor Tony in a rematch with him and I would make Tony a slight favorite in a rematch to Williams. Nobody else at 154 has a chance beat him, unless Oscar comes back up. At worst, Tony would be 4th best LMW right now. I would hardly call that not "surviving."

On your other point, I agree, and I'll add this. You won't ruin your body keeping your weight down if you stay in shape between fights and live a clean lifestyle. If you are making weight the right way, it's not nearly as damaging. Of course, it's not good to regularly dehydrate down 5 or so pounds, but that won't hurt you like starving yourself to lose 30 in 8 weeks and sweating down another 12. That's how you do yourself a lot to damage. The list goes on and an of fighters who abuse themselves between fights - Gatti, Chico, JCC, Bowe, Vargas, Duran, Mayorga, Guzman, and Toney, just to name a few. It's the rollercoast that gets them. Guys like Hopkins and Mayweather who still train and watch their diet between camps tend to have much better longevity. Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Joe Calzaghe isn't a drinker he doesn't put on excessive weight between camps. This is why the clock is ticking on Hatton even though he's only 30. Unless he swears off lager and curry for the rest of his career, he'll be shot in two more years, and when he goes, he'll go fast...a al Castillo and Chico.

Originally Posted by imp

Paul williams and antonio margarito are only in the welterweight division because at the time it was the hottest division on earth because pbf was still fighting.
These guys should be in the middleweight division but they just want pick on the little guys.
i think that boxing still needs pbf but why should he take the risk of fighting these fully grown middlewights when he wont be paid enough. he already beat the most famous middle weight in the world already in oscar!
I am really surprised when I hear people defending these supposedly feared fighters when it just comes down to the fact they dont want to fight at there own weight.
Antonio wont even fight williams again..p'ssy.

How do you figure? Personal opp?......Tony is a WW hands down....I guess Hatton is a LHW because he has been known to walk around aT 170 at times?....Give it a rest man....

Hearns was 6'1"+ and never needed to lose more then 15 lbs to fight in his prime....

PBF was small for a WW compared to many and he dominated,.....

If you can make the weight and remain healthy then it is a weight class for you....

Originally Posted by RozzySean

Originally Posted by Taeth

Corrales was shot by the time he went up to welterweight, he jumped 140 to do it against one of the best WW's in the world, and he fought well its just Clottey was too big, and strong. I think if Corrales would have taken the time to naturally become a welterweight he would have been fine, but he had been through two brutal fights wtih Castillo, he was killing himself to make weight at 135, and I think mistreating his body like that made it impossible for him to be a contender at 147. I mean Margarito 5'11 at 147, But Corrales was 6' at 130. He was huge, and could hit very hard, had fast hands, good boxing skills when he used them. He was a beast.

Bernard Hopkins was a different situation because all fighters generally go to higher weight classes as their career go on, but Bernard was 40 before he left the middleweight division, in order to survive he needed to keep his weight down, but he fought at middleweight forever without problems making weight.

I have no problem with guys like Paul Williams and Margarito fighting at 147, I would hate to see them ruin their bodies for the rest of their lives making it, but I don't want to see a fighter give up an advantage, especially that advantage to appease certain fans. Margarito wouldn't survive at 154 where guys are bigger than him, and Santos proved that, but at 147 he is a beast. I think it makes guys like MAyweather who climb so high, and still beat the big guys all the more impressive.

It's not fair to say that Tony wouldn't survive at 154 and that Santos "proved" that. Tony is a better fighter than a guy who lost to Santos, and also, Santos is a tall southpaw. Three of Tony's losses have come to tall Southpaws. Maybe that's a coincidence, but some of it might be a matchup issue. Also, the Santos fight was extremely close, Tony was ahead on one card, and if it didn't go to the cards early because of the cut, Margo may well have one that fight. You could say he doesn't belong there if he got sparked or dominated by Santos, but he didn't. And it's not like Santos is chopped liver. He's one of the top guys at 154. I would heavily favor Tony in a rematch with him and I would make Tony a slight favorite in a rematch to Williams. Nobody else at 154 has a chance beat him, unless Oscar comes back up. At worst, Tony would be 4th best LMW right now. I would hardly call that not "surviving."

On your other point, I agree, and I'll add this. You won't ruin your body keeping your weight down if you stay in shape between fights and live a clean lifestyle. If you are making weight the right way, it's not nearly as damaging. Of course, it's not good to regularly dehydrate down 5 or so pounds, but that won't hurt you like starving yourself to lose 30 in 8 weeks and sweating down another 12. That's how you do yourself a lot to damage. The list goes on and an of fighters who abuse themselves between fights - Gatti, Chico, JCC, Bowe, Vargas, Duran, Mayorga, Guzman, and Toney, just to name a few. It's the rollercoast that gets them. Guys like Hopkins and Mayweather who still train and watch their diet between camps tend to have much better longevity. Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Joe Calzaghe isn't a drinker he doesn't put on excessive weight between camps. This is why the clock is ticking on Hatton even though he's only 30. Unless he swears off lager and curry for the rest of his career, he'll be shot in two more years, and when he goes, he'll go fast...a al Castillo and Chico.

But Santons isn't the best that the junior middleweights have to offer, I can't see Margarito beating Vernon Forest, Alcine, etc. His biggest advantage is his ability to impose his size on his opponents, Not that these guys would stop him, but they force him to fight in the middle of the ring where he would be forced to use his limited boxing skills.

Margarito is a Welterweight..he weights in on the Welterweight limit therefore he is a Welterweight. Is he a big welterweight, sure. Valuev is a big heavyweight so I suppose he should pick on guys his own size too?

Originally Posted by RozzySean

Originally Posted by Taeth

Corrales was shot by the time he went up to welterweight, he jumped 140 to do it against one of the best WW's in the world, and he fought well its just Clottey was too big, and strong. I think if Corrales would have taken the time to naturally become a welterweight he would have been fine, but he had been through two brutal fights wtih Castillo, he was killing himself to make weight at 135, and I think mistreating his body like that made it impossible for him to be a contender at 147. I mean Margarito 5'11 at 147, But Corrales was 6' at 130. He was huge, and could hit very hard, had fast hands, good boxing skills when he used them. He was a beast.

Bernard Hopkins was a different situation because all fighters generally go to higher weight classes as their career go on, but Bernard was 40 before he left the middleweight division, in order to survive he needed to keep his weight down, but he fought at middleweight forever without problems making weight.

I have no problem with guys like Paul Williams and Margarito fighting at 147, I would hate to see them ruin their bodies for the rest of their lives making it, but I don't want to see a fighter give up an advantage, especially that advantage to appease certain fans. Margarito wouldn't survive at 154 where guys are bigger than him, and Santos proved that, but at 147 he is a beast. I think it makes guys like MAyweather who climb so high, and still beat the big guys all the more impressive.

It's not fair to say that Tony wouldn't survive at 154 and that Santos "proved" that. Tony is a better fighter than a guy who lost to Santos, and also, Santos is a tall southpaw. Three of Tony's losses have come to tall Southpaws. Maybe that's a coincidence, but some of it might be a matchup issue. Also, the Santos fight was extremely close, Tony was ahead on one card, and if it didn't go to the cards early because of the cut, Margo may well have one that fight. You could say he doesn't belong there if he got sparked or dominated by Santos, but he didn't. And it's not like Santos is chopped liver. He's one of the top guys at 154. I would heavily favor Tony in a rematch with him and I would make Tony a slight favorite in a rematch to Williams. Nobody else at 154 has a chance beat him, unless Oscar comes back up. At worst, Tony would be 4th best LMW right now. I would hardly call that not "surviving."

On your other point, I agree, and I'll add this. You won't ruin your body keeping your weight down if you stay in shape between fights and live a clean lifestyle. If you are making weight the right way, it's not nearly as damaging. Of course, it's not good to regularly dehydrate down 5 or so pounds, but that won't hurt you like starving yourself to lose 30 in 8 weeks and sweating down another 12. That's how you do yourself a lot to damage. The list goes on and an of fighters who abuse themselves between fights - Gatti, Chico, JCC, Bowe, Vargas, Duran, Mayorga, Guzman, and Toney, just to name a few. It's the rollercoast that gets them. Guys like Hopkins and Mayweather who still train and watch their diet between camps tend to have much better longevity. Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Joe Calzaghe isn't a drinker he doesn't put on excessive weight between camps. This is why the clock is ticking on Hatton even though he's only 30. Unless he swears off lager and curry for the rest of his career, he'll be shot in two more years, and when he goes, he'll go fast...a al Castillo and Chico.

Joe Calzaghe does drink, however his dad has a policy that any alcohol or fatty foods that they eat, they then have to make the extra effort to work it off the following day & they obviously don't drink in the run up to a fight. Regards to Margarito & Williams fighting at the weight, whilst they are big, as long as they make the weight then they have the right to be there, although I don't see it as sustainable in the long term for Williams.

Also in a rematch I would see Margarito breakin Santos, as he is always a bit of a slow starter in fights & I think he would've gone on to win that day. I could only see three guys being able to beat him at either 147 or 154 & that's PBF, ODLH & Williams. If Mora & Mayorga can beat Forrest (even on a bad night) then I think Margarito would have more than enough for him.

That was a different Mayorga that would easily be a toss up against Margarito, and he was a much bigger puncher which gave Forest the problems he did, Mayorga also is able to land from the outside, or was able to in his prime. Also Mora sparred with Margarito I know its not the same thing, but watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_uQLwuTeOQ

I would have loved to have seen Mayweather go up after he dominated WW... His defense would have allowed him to go up against some of even the toughest guys at the higher weights.. I'm positive he would have carried his speed as good as Jones did when he moved up early on.. It would have also earnt him a tonnnnnnne of credit and even more support than he had...

Did PBF fight any fights at 147 other than against Baldomir and Hatton (who, at 5'6, is a very small welterweight)? Is he considered a true welterweight? Didn't he fight most of his career at lighter weightclasses? PBF jumped up weight, but he retired before he beat any of the top welterweights. When he retired the welterweight division included: Cotto, Shane, Williams, Margarito, and Clottey. None of whom he fought.

Listed at 6'1 1/2, Williams is a very tall welterweight. However, Margarito at 5'11 is not an extremely tall weltweight. Haven't there been many weltweights who fought at 5'11?

Height and reach (to a lesser extent) don't always translate into a winning combination. For a recent example look to Stipe Drews. Drews, a light heavyweight from Croatia, stood 6'5, and was rocked by Danny Green, who stood 6'1. On the other hand, if the boxer fights tall, using mostly his jab to distance himself from his opponent, height and reach can be highly effective against smaller opponents.

In addition, I think taller boxers may naturally fight at lower weight class because they have thin frames. Williams is 6'1 1/2 can fight at weltweight and junior middleweight because he has a thin frame. Nonetheless, his height is more than sufficient for a light heavyweight, but imagine what would happen if he ran into some of the big punching light heavyweights.

My hypothesis would be that a relationship exists between height and body frame that translates into the weight class a boxer should fight at.

Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Did PBF fight any fights at 147 other than against Baldomir and Hatton (who, at 5'6, is a very small welterweight)? Is he considered a true welterweight? Didn't he fight most of his career at lighter weightclasses? PBF jumped up weight, but he retired before he beat any of the top welterweights. When he retired the welterweight division included: Cotto, Shane, Williams, Margarito, and Clottey. None of whom he fought.

Listed at 6'1 1/2, Williams is a very tall welterweight. However, Margarito at 5'11 is not an extremely tall weltweight. Haven't there been many weltweights who fought at 5'11?

Height and reach (to a lesser extent) don't always translate into a winning combination. For a recent example look to Stipe Drews. Drews, a light heavyweight from Croatia, stood 6'5, and was rocked by Danny Green, who stood 6'1. On the other hand, if the boxer fights tall, using mostly his jab to distance himself from his opponent, height and reach can be highly effective against smaller opponents.

In addition, I think taller boxers may naturally fight at lower weight class because they have thin frames. Williams is 6'1 1/2 can fight at weltweight and junior middleweight because he has a thin frame. Nonetheless, his height is more than sufficient for a light heavyweight, but imagine what would happen if he ran into some of the big punching light heavyweights.

My hypothesis would be that a relationship exists between height and body frame that translates into the weight class a boxer should fight at.

PBF also fought Mitchell and Judah at WW (both small compared to the divisions standards) however it should be noted that at one point or another Judah and Baldomir were the undisputed champs at 147.

I think if someone can make weight then they can justify being in a weightclass. If someone really wanted to change the equation then they would have same day weigh-ins.

i think same day weigh in sounds good.