Thread: Can anyone argue with my logic here?

Ok instead of going round in circles in this catchweight discussion lets use humanity's greatest gifts of reasoning powers and logic in solving this.

I will put forth what I believe to be simple logical truths and if you disagree you can then show exactly what logical statement you are disagreeing with and why and we can hammer out each indepenent logical point until a fair solution is reached.

Ok, if anyone wants to follow here are my logical positions laid out one by one, to challenge if you will.


Logical Position 1 Weight classes and world championship belts for these classes exist (in an ideal world) so that fighters can fight for glory against fighters of their own size or thereabouts. This is due to the simple logic that if there were no weight classes those fighters of heavyweight size would dominate, a 230 lb man is likely to be far to big for a 120 lb, 160 lb man etc.
Size clearly matters, hence weight divisions exist.

Logical Position 2 Size isn't the only factor however. Talent, speed, other physical assets, technical boxing ability, heart, chin etc also all factor in greatly.

Logical Position 3 Therefore a fighter can move up a weight class and defeat a fighter naturally heavier than him if he has advantages in other areas that compensate for his size deficit.

Logial Position 4 We can therefore create a simple logical equation as follows.

If a 135 lb fighter takes on a 147 lb fighter, providing all other factors are equal and the only deciding factor is bodyweight, the bigger man will win. This is because he has advantage in size.

However ifa smaller man fights a man of bigger size but has advantages in other factors, speed, skill etc then he can nullify the weight advantage and win.


Logical Position 5 Roy Jones was able to move up to heavyweight and beat John Ruiz because although he was giving up bodyweight, Ruiz was giving up more, in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc. The equation overal worked out in Roy Jones favour because he was better in all other areas other than size.

Logical Postion 6 If John Ruiz was the equal to Roy Jones in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc then with his extra weight advantage he would have won, and most likely dominated the fight

Logical Position 7 Therefore Ruiz was chosen as an opponent for Roy Jones on that basis. He was inferior to Jones in every respect other than size. Jones would not have attempted to fight Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko brother because the weight vs talent equation would no longer be in his favour.

Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.

Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters.

Logical position 10 Going back to our original equation if a smaller man fights a bigger man the smaller man will lose unless he has talents great enough to compensate for the size advantage. It is clear that guys like Cotto and Mosely are as talanted as Manny Pacquaio, other elite fighters and as they are also bigger they will have a very large advantage.

Logical Position 11 However If the bigger fighter gives up a small part of his size advantage then size is no longer the deciding factor. As the bigger fighter is probably too big to drop down a whole weight class, an alternative would be to fight at an agreed weight somewhere between the two fighters weight classes. It is up to the two fighters and their teams to agree to a weight limit that they feel they can comfortably make and still fight to their ability. If they cannot agree to such a weight that the fight should not occur.

Logical Position 12 When two fighters have conquered weight classes and won many world title belts they move into the category of p4p stars, elite fighters. At that stage they want to test themselves against other elite fighters, from henceforth it is the opponent not the belt or weight class that is important. P4P superstars want to beat other p4p superstars more than they want to win 'belts' or fight in a particular weight class

Logical position 13 Therefore a fight between Manny and Cotto transcends any world title belt or weight class. For these fighters it is not about a belt or division now, it is the opponent who matters, they want the accolade of beating that particular elite opponent over the accolade of winning a belt in a set weight class

Logical Conclusion So in this instance a catchweight is a viable solution to the problem of getting two elite fighters from different weight classes into the ring. As we are now interested in the quality of the fight between these two great individuals more than just to see a fight for a 'belt' we can in this case discard the need to fight in a set weight class for a particular world title belt because this fight is bigger than that. We have world titles and weight divisions to see who is the best in those divisions, but once fighters achieve those accolades they are after a higher goal, that of fighting other p4p stars, not winning more belts.

Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom

Ok instead of going round in circles in this catchweight discussion lets use humanity's greatest gifts of reasoning powers and logic in solving this.

I will put forth what I believe to be simple logical truths and if you disagree you can then show exactly what logical statement you are disagreeing with and why and we can hammer out each indepenent logical point until a fair solution is reached.

Ok, if anyone wants to follow here are my logical positions laid out one by one, to challenge if you will.


Logical Position 1 Weight classes and world championship belts for these classes exist (in an ideal world) so that fighters can fight for glory against fighters of their own size or thereabouts. This is due to the simple logic that if there were no weight classes those fighters of heavyweight size would dominate, a 230 lb man is likely to be far to big for a 120 lb, 160 lb man etc.
Size clearly matters, hence weight divisions exist.

Logical Position 2 Size isn't the only factor however. Talent, speed, other physical assets, technical boxing ability, heart, chin etc also all factor in greatly.

Logical Position 3 Therefore a fighter can move up a weight class and defeat a fighter naturally heavier than him if he has advantages in other areas that compensate for his size deficit.

Logial Position 4 We can therefore create a simple logical equation as follows.

If a 135 lb fighter takes on a 147 lb fighter, providing all other factors are equal and the only deciding factor is bodyweight, the bigger man will win. This is because he has advantage in size.

However ifa smaller man fights a man of bigger size but has advantages in other factors, speed, skill etc then he can nullify the weight advantage and win.


Logical Position 5 Roy Jones was able to move up to heavyweight and beat John Ruiz because although he was giving up bodyweight, Ruiz was giving up more, in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc. The equation overal worked out in Roy Jones favour because he was better in all other areas other than size.

Logical Postion 6 If John Ruiz was the equal to Roy Jones in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc then with his extra weight advantage he would have won, and most likely dominated the fight

Logical Position 7 Therefore Ruiz was chosen as an opponent for Roy Jones on that basis. He was inferior to Jones in every respect other than size. Jones would not have attempted to fight Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko brother because the weight vs talent equation would no longer be in his favour.

Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.

Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters.

Logical position 10 Going back to our original equation if a smaller man fights a bigger man the smaller man will lose unless he has talents great enough to compensate for the size advantage. It is clear that guys like Cotto and Mosely are as talanted as Manny Pacquaio, other elite fighters and as they are also bigger they will have a very large advantage.

Logical Position 11 However If the bigger fighter gives up a small part of his size advantage then size is no longer the deciding factor. As the bigger fighter is probably too big to drop down a whole weight class, an alternative would be to fight at an agreed weight somewhere between the two fighters weight classes. It is up to the two fighters and their teams to agree to a weight limit that they feel they can comfortably make and still fight to their ability. If they cannot agree to such a weight that the fight should not occur.

Logical Position 12 When two fighters have conquered weight classes and won many world title belts they move into the category of p4p stars, elite fighters. At that stage they want to test themselves against other elite fighters, from henceforth it is the opponent not the belt or weight class that is important. P4P superstars want to beat other p4p superstars more than they want to win 'belts' or fight in a particular weight class

Logical position 13 Therefore a fight between Manny and Cotto transcends any world title belt or weight class. For these fighters it is not about a belt or division now, it is the opponent who matters, they want the accolade of beating that particular elite opponent over the accolade of winning a belt in a set weight class

Logical Conclusion So in this instance a catchweight is a viable solution to the problem of getting two elite fighters from different weight classes into the ring. As we are now interested in the quality of the fight between these two great individuals more than just to see a fight for a 'belt' we can in this case discard the need to fight in a set weight class for a particular world title belt because this fight is bigger than that. We have world titles and weight divisions to see who is the best in those divisions, but once fighters achieve those accolades they are after a higher goal, that of fighting other p4p stars, not winning more belts.

logical position# 14; it just has too many logical positions it makes logical confusions?

Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom

Ok instead of going round in circles in this catchweight discussion lets use humanity's greatest gifts of reasoning powers and logic in solving this.

I will put forth what I believe to be simple logical truths and if you disagree you can then show exactly what logical statement you are disagreeing with and why and we can hammer out each indepenent logical point until a fair solution is reached.

Ok, if anyone wants to follow here are my logical positions laid out one by one, to challenge if you will.


Logical Position 1 Weight classes and world championship belts for these classes exist (in an ideal world) so that fighters can fight for glory against fighters of their own size or thereabouts. This is due to the simple logic that if there were no weight classes those fighters of heavyweight size would dominate, a 230 lb man is likely to be far to big for a 120 lb, 160 lb man etc.
Size clearly matters, hence weight divisions exist.

Logical Position 2 Size isn't the only factor however. Talent, speed, other physical assets, technical boxing ability, heart, chin etc also all factor in greatly.

Logical Position 3 Therefore a fighter can move up a weight class and defeat a fighter naturally heavier than him if he has advantages in other areas that compensate for his size deficit.

Logial Position 4 We can therefore create a simple logical equation as follows.

If a 135 lb fighter takes on a 147 lb fighter, providing all other factors are equal and the only deciding factor is bodyweight, the bigger man will win. This is because he has advantage in size.

However ifa smaller man fights a man of bigger size but has advantages in other factors, speed, skill etc then he can nullify the weight advantage and win.


Logical Position 5 Roy Jones was able to move up to heavyweight and beat John Ruiz because although he was giving up bodyweight, Ruiz was giving up more, in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc. The equation overal worked out in Roy Jones favour because he was better in all other areas other than size.

Logical Postion 6 If John Ruiz was the equal to Roy Jones in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc then with his extra weight advantage he would have won, and most likely dominated the fight

Logical Position 7 Therefore Ruiz was chosen as an opponent for Roy Jones on that basis. He was inferior to Jones in every respect other than size. Jones would not have attempted to fight Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko brother because the weight vs talent equation would no longer be in his favour.

Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.

Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters.

Logical position 10 Going back to our original equation if a smaller man fights a bigger man the smaller man will lose unless he has talents great enough to compensate for the size advantage. It is clear that guys like Cotto and Mosely are as talanted as Manny Pacquaio, other elite fighters and as they are also bigger they will have a very large advantage.

Logical Position 11 However If the bigger fighter gives up a small part of his size advantage then size is no longer the deciding factor. As the bigger fighter is probably too big to drop down a whole weight class, an alternative would be to fight at an agreed weight somewhere between the two fighters weight classes. It is up to the two fighters and their teams to agree to a weight limit that they feel they can comfortably make and still fight to their ability. If they cannot agree to such a weight that the fight should not occur.

Logical Position 12 When two fighters have conquered weight classes and won many world title belts they move into the category of p4p stars, elite fighters. At that stage they want to test themselves against other elite fighters, from henceforth it is the opponent not the belt or weight class that is important. P4P superstars want to beat other p4p superstars more than they want to win 'belts' or fight in a particular weight class

Logical position 13 Therefore a fight between Manny and Cotto transcends any world title belt or weight class. For these fighters it is not about a belt or division now, it is the opponent who matters, they want the accolade of beating that particular elite opponent over the accolade of winning a belt in a set weight class

Logical Conclusion So in this instance a catchweight is a viable solution to the problem of getting two elite fighters from different weight classes into the ring. As we are now interested in the quality of the fight between these two great individuals more than just to see a fight for a 'belt' we can in this case discard the need to fight in a set weight class for a particular world title belt because this fight is bigger than that. We have world titles and weight divisions to see who is the best in those divisions, but once fighters achieve those accolades they are after a higher goal, that of fighting other p4p stars, not winning more belts.

Here's a logical conclusion, the Pacman fanboys and the Hatton fanboys are the worst boxing fans, except once in a while you have one that is logical but very rare.

I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.

Aren't you supposed to be banned?

Originally Posted by CFH

I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.

Aren't you supposed to be banned?

I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!!

I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop'

Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom

Originally Posted by CFH

I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.

Aren't you supposed to be banned?

I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!!

I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop'

I've never seen the film. If you want I can ban you (I think), but I'm not exactly experienced in such things and there might be unforeseen consequences. I don't really think you want to be banned in the midst of such a fine argument though, do you?

Originally Posted by CFH

Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom

Originally Posted by CFH

I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.

Aren't you supposed to be banned?

I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!!

I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop'

I've never seen the film. If you want I can ban you (I think), but I'm not exactly experienced in such things and there might be unforeseen consequences. I don't really think you want to be banned in the midst of such a fine argument though, do you?

Do it mate. This account can be deleted anyway, Saddo banned my Bilbo account until a week Monday.

Enjoy the power of flushing an account and I can then go and eat and attend to my bleeding fingertips

I stopped reading after #4